@joe @interfluidity The state of disconnection from reality already did.

But taking away citizenship is not a good idea to add to the toolbox of punishment. Just that someone is vile doesn't change that it is potentially ending one's ability to live. Do it for who you hate, open up the possibility to have it done to you or your loved ones.

@admitsWrongIfProven

The frequent penalty to lying to get naturalized is already denaturalization. It's a thing, no one has to invent it, it's already a recourse for the crime committed. I'm not advocating it, it is already the norm.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denaturalization#Fraudulent_naturalization

@joe @admitsWrongIfProven It’s not the norm. It is extraordinarily rare.

@interfluidity @admitsWrongIfProven neither of us have stats

@joe @interfluidity Someone should be present to be held responsible for crimes against humanity... so i'd recommend keeping him. Stats nonewithstanding.

@admitsWrongIfProven @interfluidity what's the point of sources if people don't read them - stateless Nazis was exactly a thing.

@joe @interfluidity I don't see why enforcing reasonable, humane laws should be eschued in favour of sending someone to wherever.

Stating the fact that it is already done is fine, but what would be the reason to prioritize it?

@admitsWrongIfProven @interfluidity The logic in this thread is laws shouldn't exist because they are a slippery slope. No one want to hold someone accountable because others might be unfairly caught up in some mysterious non-existent dragnet. The whole thread is about not holding anyone accountable in any way.

@joe @admitsWrongIfProven No it is not. People can be prosecuted for perjury. The logic of this thread is that citizenship is foundational, that denaturalization is not an appropriate form of accountability, for anyone. You can put people in jail with their citizenship intact if that is what accountability demands.

@interfluidity @admitsWrongIfProven you're saying laws that exist do not exist and that things that happened didn't happen. You argued it's rare without evidence. Let's just stop. You just want the law gone, the rest is fear mongering.

@joe @admitsWrongIfProven I do want the law changed so that denaturalization is not a thing! What did I say happened that did not happen? Between 2008 and 2021, there were 228 denaturalization cases. 40% of those were 2017 to 2020, due to the Trump administration. Even with that acceleration, it averages less than 18 cases a year, out of 7-ish hundred thousand naturalized in an average year. It is a very rare event. https://www.aila.org/library/featured-issue-denaturalization-efforts-by-uscis

@interfluidity @admitsWrongIfProven what's the stats for the crimes committed to earn it - that's the point. It's probably rare that people lie to get citizenship and get through, but there is an existing recourse for it and you want it gone. We will never know how often we catch the lie and actually do anything about it.

If Trump or someone wants to deport citizens they'll do it. The idea that Musk could be punished for committing a crime has nothing to do with your other looming spectre.

@joe @admitsWrongIfProven I’d like to see Musk punished for a bunch of crimes. He should go to jail for flagrantly violating election and lottery laws, for example. Perjury is a crime, and we can attach as steep a penalty as we wish to perjury for the purpose if obtaining citizenship. There’s no need for denaturalization as a remedy, and its existence renders a foundational aspect of people’s lives uncertain, reversible, and privileges natural-born over naturalized citizens.