@joesabin @bethsawin Socialism = "stuff I don't like."
@12thRITS @joesabin@mastodon.world @bethsawin My partner's grandfather was sentenced to 18 years in prison for criticising the government, in a socialist nation. It is surreal that we still talk about socialism.
@naciketas @12thRITS @joesabin @bethsawin My uncle's brother was killed by police when participating in a strike, in a capitalist nation. It is surreal that we still talk about capitalism.
@jackofalltrades @12thRITS @joesabin@mastodon.world @bethsawin The difference is that in a capitalist country the policeman is prosecuted. But I am not defending capitalism. In a capitalist country I grew up in a 38 square metre house. But to counter capitalism with socialism is to be left behind a hundred years ago.
@naciketas @jackofalltrades @12thRITS @joesabin @bethsawin Haw, you think the police are prosecuted, that's adorable!
@miriamrobern @jackofalltrades @12thRITS @joesabin@mastodon.world @bethsawin
This is yesterday's news: five policemen were convicted of beating a prisoner in San Gimignano prison. They are not always convicted: but to think that this is the same as in an undemocratic country is to be in bad faith.
https://www.tag24.it/529333-carcere-san-gimignano-tortura/
@naciketas @miriamrobern @12thRITS @joesabin @bethsawin
The police were there to break the strike that the capitalist state deemed "illegal". They did exactly what they were supposed to do. Hundreds of workers were beaten and arrested. Think who in this scenario is the one being "prosecuted".
Regarding the "going back to socialism" logic, I discussed this recently in another thread, so I'll just link my previous toot: https://mas.to/@jackofalltrades/109961408822252239
@jackofalltrades @miriamrobern @12thRITS @joesabin@mastodon.world @bethsawin In Italy, as in all democratic countries, the right to strike is guaranteed by law. Which country are you referring to?
@jackofalltrades @miriamrobern @12thRITS @joesabin@mastodon.world @bethsawin Your thesis is that the UK in the 80 was the same thing af the Albany of Enver Hoxha?
@naciketas @miriamrobern @12thRITS @joesabin @bethsawin No, don't build a straw man.
I only provided two counterarguments to your claim that "in all democratic countries the right to strike is guaranteed by law". The reality is that in capitalist countries the government is in symbiotic relationship with the capitalist class, and will police labor if necessary.
@jackofalltrades @miriamrobern @12thRITS @joesabin@mastodon.world @bethsawin The matter is more complex. In a democratic system, there are parties that serve the interests of the ruling class - in Italy the Christian Democrats, the party of the corrupt, served the interests of the rich and the mafia for decades -, parties that serve the interests of the workers, trade unions, movements and so on. At times there may be authoritarian drifts, but really no comparison with communist or fascist regimes is seriously possible.
@naciketas @miriamrobern @12thRITS @joesabin @bethsawin Why no serious comparison is possible?
Socialism as implemented by USSR grew out of collapse of a feudal government after a devastating war, and as a reaction to failed revolutions in Western Europe. The reformist strands of socialism keep influencing European politics to this day.
Fascism grew out of economic hardships in *democratic* states.
There are many lessons to be learned from history and many angles to make comparisons from.
@jackofalltrades @naciketas @12thRITS @joesabin @bethsawin NTM the USSR survived under incomprehensible international pressure for its entire existence. Imagine what a socialist state could be if it wasn’t immediately dogpiled by the fascist capitalists of the world.
@miriamrobern @jackofalltrades @12thRITS @joesabin@mastodon.world @bethsawin The Albanian communist regime has been ignored by the entire world, it has not been pressurised by anyone. And it was a paranoid regime that brought only misery to the Albanian people.
@miriamrobern @naciketas @12thRITS @joesabin @bethsawin Hoxha government was definitely controversial. As you said: history is complex. But I'm pretty sure they did not *only* bring misery to the Albanian people. See selected quotes from https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enver_Hoxha
@jackofalltrades @miriamrobern @12thRITS @joesabin@mastodon.world @bethsawin How many times have you been to Albania?
@naciketas @jackofalltrades @12thRITS @joesabin @bethsawin I've never had the pleasure.
I suppose you've visited every communist and every capitalist society on the planet, which is why you're qualified to speak with such authority on all of them?
@miriamrobern @jackofalltrades @12thRITS @joesabin@mastodon.world @bethsawin I have visited Albania several times - my partner is Albanian - and several capitalist countries.
@naciketas @jackofalltrades @12thRITS @joesabin @bethsawin So not all of them. But you're comfortable pontificating about all of them.
And did you visit Albania pre-1990, or only after it was ruled by the people who overthrew the communists?
And while we're at it, sounds like you're literally married into a family of Albanian partisans, and you... think that makes you less biased?
@miriamrobern @jackofalltrades @12thRITS @joesabin@mastodon.world @bethsawin You are wrong. The people I spoke to were leading members of the Albanian Communist Party.
I didn't understand what I was pontificating about.
@miriamrobern @jackofalltrades @12thRITS @joesabin@mastodon.world @bethsawin Enver Hoxha broke relations with all communist countries. First with the USSR, then with China. He considered Albania to be the only truly communist country in the world, and therefore could have no relations with anyone. Hoxha terrorised the Albanian people for years by telling them that the enemies of communism would invade the country. In reality, no one had the slightest care for that unfortunate country.
@naciketas @jackofalltrades @12thRITS @joesabin @bethsawin Lookit those goalposts go!
You do understand that "nobody paid any attention to Albania" is a completely different statement than "Albania cut itself off from everybody," right?
@naciketas @jackofalltrades @12thRITS @joesabin @bethsawin Uh, the US, at least, broke off formal relations in 1946, cutting off trade almost entirely, until relations were re-established in 1990 after Hoxha died. But go off on your own version of history built out of your own facts.