@Reb I ask this because I read an article That was basically a scientist saying that we basically have no free will, but we need to pretend we do lol

@RickiTarr @Reb@strangeobject.space

I wonder about that scientist. In theory, if you knew the state of everything, you could predict the future. But, Schroedinger showed you can not know the state of everything. Also, quantum mechanics kind of implies that the evolution of things (even at the lowest level) is probabilistic in nature. (Einstein's "Gott wuerfelt nicht." quote).

So quantum mechanics really seems to imply predestination exists only in terms of probabilities, which is pretty week.

I tend to follow Robert Anton Wilson's approach, which is consistent with quantum mechanics and very much anti-predestination.

I follow Sartre's concept of "you define yourself." It is the only thing that makes sense. You are not a passive punching bag for the universe.

@rrb @Reb The issue I find with this entire thought process personally is the essential question, Is this a scientific or a philosophical question, can't really be answered completely. I don't know that it's the kind of question that can be truly answered, but it's interesting to think about.

@RickiTarr @rrb @Reb I believe they can co-exist, and that it's a scientific question. it comes down to complexity: Will is an emergent property of a universe so skull-crushingly complex it's impossible to comprehend. The underlying rules of this universe become simpler the lower-level we get (e.g. particles with only 2-3 states), which would imply predictability - but there's so much of everything that complexity & things like choice & free will emerge at the higher levels. More = different.

@jwcph @RickiTarr @rrb @Reb
interesting, but you're asserting, "Will is an emergent property," without providing any evidence that it is.
And that's where the argument begins to stall.

@TessRants @RickiTarr @rrb @Reb I only have a limited number of characters 😁 there's plenty of evidence that will is an emergent property - in fact, it's a bit difficult to argue that it's anything else without getting into metaphysics or superstition.

@jwcph @TessRants @RickiTarr @Reb@strangeobject.space

I never really saw proofs that something is emergent, anyway. Besides which, the concept emergent is kind of hand wavy, verging on mystical.

@jwcph @TessRants @RickiTarr @Reb@strangeobject.space Will is also a concept that verges on mysticism.

However, as an atheist, I kind of like the idea of demanding statistical validation of any religious concept. I think Buddhism is the only faith that would pass that test.