@Linux_Is_Best @ItsTrainingCatsAndDogs no offense, but is there ever a right way to go about genocide? They’ve been doing a quieter version of this for decades.
They have, while terrorist and fascist groups in Palestine, Iran, Syria, Yemen, etc. have been killing and threatening Israelis since its inception, not just due to WW1, but because they're Jewish people and close to Western ideologies.
The Levant should not have been conquered, but same as with Taiwan there is no justification to just undo a working democratic nation.
We need to recognize the rights of each side, not tolerate their crimes
@ekes @justpeachy @Linux_Is_Best @ItsTrainingCatsAndDogs
(1.) The terrorist IDF is killing innocent children in Gaza. Nothing can justify that.
(2.) Anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism for the same reason that anti-Nazism is not anti-Germanism.
(3.) Israel is not a "democratic nation," or even a nation at all. By definition, a nation has fixed borders.
@LevZadov @ekes @justpeachy @Linux_Is_Best@mstdn.social @ItsTrainingCatsAndDogs@kolektiva.social (1) How should they defend themselves? I'm hearing a lot this kind of thing – describing Gaza as an open-air prison, and so on. But no coherent alternative IDF could be pursuing instead.
It would be great if there was some magical way Israel could end Hamas without any civilian casualties, but I don't know if that is possible. Like in WW2, we killed, what, like a million German civilians? That was awful. We probably could have done better. But certainly not 0, right?
@ech @ekes @justpeachy @Linux_Is_Best @ItsTrainingCatsAndDogs
Why are you defending genocide and apartheid?
@LevZadov @ekes @justpeachy @Linux_Is_Best@mstdn.social @ItsTrainingCatsAndDogs@kolektiva.social You see the allies' actions in WW2 as "genocide"? They were *stopping* an actual genocide, although I don't think that was the main goal. Well, anyway, like I said, we could have done a lot better there, sure.
Please... The whole "there are no alternatives" sophistry is so old.
Israel has a right to self-defense, not retaliation. They have a right to gain a military advantage (not a political one or just any desired goal) within sensible proportion to the damage they cause to non-military objects or beings.
If you bomb a social gathering just for one leader, you better be able to present a massive impact to your military campaign.
@LevZadov @justpeachy @Linux_Is_Best @ItsTrainingCatsAndDogs
@ekes @LevZadov @justpeachy @Linux_Is_Best@mstdn.social @ItsTrainingCatsAndDogs@kolektiva.social Exactly; that gets at what I'm asking. (I don't get the "please... " line?)
So are they missing the mark in this regard? How do we (you and I) evaluate this – assuming we don't want to take the IDF's or Hamas' word for it?
@ech @ekes @LevZadov @Linux_Is_Best @ItsTrainingCatsAndDogs are you asking if they’re missing the mark by committing mass murder? Your question is confusing.
@justpeachy @ekes @LevZadov @Linux_Is_Best@mstdn.social @ItsTrainingCatsAndDogs@kolektiva.social No, I mean in response to the mass murder. After the mass murder/rape/kidnapping on Oct 7, naively I would think the IDF would at some point need to degrade the capabilities of the group that carried it out. (especially since they say they intend to repeat it many times: ‘there will be a second, a third, a fourth’). How do they do this while minimizing civilian casualties? I had hoped they could do better than they are now, but I have no idea if that is realistic.
This matters in a practical sense to me personally, because the government I have the privilege to vote for seems to be bankrolling whatever they're doing: because of that it is on me to find an answer to this question, at least in some sense.
@ech @ekes @LevZadov @Linux_Is_Best @ItsTrainingCatsAndDogs mass murder in response to mass murder is indeed missing the mark. Hope that helps.
@justpeachy @ekes @LevZadov @Linux_Is_Best@mstdn.social @ItsTrainingCatsAndDogs@kolektiva.social Then what instead?
@justpeachy @ekes @LevZadov @ItsTrainingCatsAndDogs@kolektiva.social well, I'm asking what those other ways are. I sure hope there are other ways; I've explicitly said I don't know what they are, though?
@ech @ekes @LevZadov @ItsTrainingCatsAndDogs kill soldiers, not refugees. Declare war. Give ample time for civilians to evacuate. And then, ya know, fight the actual people who did the killing.
If they displace the population, a third-party needs to ensure they can come back. Ethnic cleansing is a real concern for Palestinians. If they cause too much dmg, helping them rebuild might be an obligation, too.
@ech
The IDF can't eliminate its threats militarily, only a pol. compromise would do that, which IL refuses to advance.
There's also no just one way to execute the operation. Reducing civ. casualties isn't as difficult as they preach
@ech @ekes @LevZadov @Linux_Is_Best @ItsTrainingCatsAndDogs you realize there are other ways to take out enemies, right?? It takes time to do things the right way. Killing children and refugees is not okay. “Well what else are they supposed to do??” Literally anything but war crimes!!