@GreenFire @ech @axeln @quixote what do we need their help with?

@ech @axeln @GreenFire @quixote
So how exactly is a Hamas fighter, after he dropped his weapon, different from a peaceful Palestinian civilian, 30 seconds after he potentially fired some rockets into Israel?

Guess the protesters think the IDF should arrest all these guys, one by one, question them, while giving them a lawyer, and send the ones who don't confess to continue their bombing of Israel? Not completely sure what the result expectation in such a situation for the IDF is?

@yacc143 @ech @axeln @GreenFire @quixote

I appreciate these posts. What is fully obvious to many of us (well, to me, at least) is the mixture of (A) deliberate propaganda reaching minds ahead of underlying facts and (B) systemic antisemitism—which is as hard to prove as is systemic racism in the U.S.

The similarity of "systemic racism" and "antisemitism" is likely why so many Jews are so profoundly Humanistic. And why, even as we recall 7 Oct 23, we lament innocent lives in Gaza.

(($; -)}™

@Gozo @ech @axeln @GreenFire @quixote
I've read a fascinating article how the IDF's Gaza campaign set new standards in urban warfare and civilian protection for other militaries.

🤷

One thing the article (even assuming that it was totally correct) left out, what the result, expected and in reality of all these measures is meant to be. 50% less civilian deaths? 20%? 80%? And such target would expose that any operation has acceptable levels of casualties.

@Gozo @ech @axeln @GreenFire @quixote
And let's be honest, international law actually does not require the IDF to achieve their goals without killing any collateral civilians, but to minimize these. Roughly. BTW, these rules apply to Hamas too, and they ignore them completely too, they still have 100% the terrorist mindset.

@yacc143 @ech @axeln @GreenFire @quixote

[ I'd like to speak to my intentions. (1) I wish to to contribute to ending death & destruction in the Israel/Gaza/West Bank region. (2) I try to aid this by Talking People Down off the Ledge of their untouchable pro-Palestinian anger. (3) I consider this anger as driven by (3.a) propaganda, (3.b) inadequate non-partisan research, and (3.c) our Left side's predilection to side with Underdogs. (4) Palestinians excel as Underdogs. FWIW. 😐]

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@yacc143 @ech @axeln @GreenFire @quixote

I just glanced at a notice that Israel (IDF) is working on a plan to move Gaza citizens to safety prior to an effort to rid #Rafah of #Hamas terrorists. What effect do you think this may have on those (especially U.S. college students) so-furious at Israel's role in the region?

The Middle East has the one democratic Middle East country that supports feminist & LGBTQ+ rights. But students support Palestinians over Israel?😐

"Antisemitism"?😐

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@Gozo @yacc143 @ech @axeln @GreenFire @quixote Palestinians cant vote. That is not a democracy. Interfaith marriage is illegal. Hitler told jews to leave before murdering them, too. Where are the Palestinians supposed to go? This is absurd, hr 6090 is fascist, banning tiktok had everything to do with controlling the masses and nothing to do with security. Our oligarchs wouldn't have placed the worlds factories in china if they actually cared. This is all about control and seizing gazan oil/land.

@cykonot @Gozo @yacc143 @ech @axeln @GreenFire The Israeli hard right has said, out loud, that they want Gazans out of that land so Jewish settlers can move in.

Israel does have more than one faction though, and, so far, there are perhaps the more reasonable people are still a majority.

@Gozo @yacc143 @ech @axeln @GreenFire @quixote That's called ethnic cleansing and it's not a good thing. Depending on your definition, it's probably genocide.

@sik0fewl @yacc143 @ech @axeln @GreenFire @quixote

It's safe to say that you and I will agree on little or nothing about this tragic 76-plus year situation. I disagree with your view, but I acknowledge your right to hold a different view. Or as many different views as you like.

Myself, I'll continue to do whatever I can think of, to help the people on all sides of that deadly mess.😐

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@sik0fewl @Gozo @yacc143 @ech @axeln @GreenFire Yes re the ethnic cleansing. That's the Israeli hard right goal.

But not genocide. Dictionary meaning: killing a whole defined group. The hard right doesn't care whether Gazans live or die. They just want them gone.

Hamas does explicitly want Jews eliminated. I.e. genocide. But they don't have the weapons.

Netanyahu is committing mass murder, not, technically, genocide.

Both awful. Genocide you can't carry out (yet) vs mass murder you can.

@quixote @sik0fewl @yacc143 @ech @axeln @GreenFire

I greatly appreciate your considered effort to assess these relevant terms. Thank you for that.

As a non-participant, I have no need to debate the correlation between "mass murder" and "end Hamas." It's solely the abused term, "Genocide," that I see as deliberately inflammatory:

Israel sees its struggle as an existential response to the Holocaust. This subsumes Judaic Humanism: Israel ignores World Opinion.

Ergo: "Genocide" fuels violence.

@quixote @Gozo @yacc143 @ech @axeln @GreenFire I disagree. https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/convention-prevention-and-punishment-crime-genocide

@sik0fewl @quixote @Gozo @ech @axeln @GreenFire

A3 (b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;

Which group is since their founding till today a conspiracy to eradicate all Israelis?

Funny, the list of countries that have ratified the convention includes Iran.

And technically, the Hamas charta makes Hamas guilty and punishable under that nice Convention.

@yacc143 @sik0fewl @quixote @ech @axeln @GreenFire

I may see what leads to the misunderstanding:

Article II: "In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, such as:

"2(a) Killing members of the group."

Does Hamas constitute "a national, ethnical, racial or religious group"?
___

Separate Question: Does IDF take prisoners?

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@yacc143 @Gozo @ech @axeln @GreenFire @quixote if their “new standards” don’t prevent the killing of doctors, children, ambulance drivers, WCK food convoys, or escaped hostages waving white flags, they are pretty shitty.
The world watched in horror when the US responded to 9/11 by deliberately emulating Israeli Foreverwar policies and torture modules that only created more enemies. My real fear is that the Global North…

@yacc143 @Gozo @ech @axeln @GreenFire @quixote … will respond to climate collapse by modeling Israeli style border policing along the entire interface zone with the Global South, and treat all migrants the way Israel treats Palestinians. Because the plans are already being laid.

@theothersimo @yacc143 @Gozo @ech @axeln @GreenFire I'm saying that Hamas are stone-cold killers and Netanyahu and his hard right henchmen are mass murderers, and I don't see the beginning of a solution until they are BOTH deposed / out of power / neutralized somehow.

(I know. Good luck with that. And, no, not catchy.)

@yacc143 @ech @axeln @GreenFire @quixote it doesn’t matter how bad Hamas is- absolutely nothing justifies this genocide. More than 1.5% of ALL PEOPLE people in Gaza have been KILLED- likely an undercount. Over 10,000 children killed- is that acceptable to you? Were they all Hamas in plainclothes? Human shields? Israel is carpet bombing a place with the population density of Manhattan. They shoot unarmed press. And this is not the first time..

@yacc143 @ech @axeln @GreenFire @quixote Even if that were true, and I'm not seeing reports of that currently, does that excuse murdering thousands of innocent Palestinian civilians?

@wbpeckham @yacc143 @ech @axeln @quixote
War is hell and we need to do all we can to avoid it, but Palestinian civilians are dying only because of what Hamas did and that they use human shields to protect their leaders and their ill-gotten gains.

@wbpeckham @ech @axeln @GreenFire @quixote
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/israel-shuts-gaza-crossing-after-hamas-rocket-barrage-from-rafah/ar-BB1lRhPB

@yacc143 @ech @axeln @GreenFire @quixote it seems that you've never seen the horrific videos of Israeli civilians kidnapping, torturing, humiliating, and killing Palestinians in the west bank, in complete impunity since the Israeli law enforcement turns a blind eye. Those Israelis are not wearing uniforms, and are proudly sharing their horrible acts online, since they know that they will never be punished by the Israeli state.

It seems that you also forget how Gaza has been under a military blockade by Israel since 2006. And how Palestine has been under military occupation since 1948 (thank you, colonial European powers!). Should Palestinians then peacefully undergo all of this violence? Are they expected to simply live and die in their open-air prison that is Gaza? Should they simply give up the country and the land that was violently taken from them? Would you?

I cannot believe how difficult it seems to be for people in Europe to see that Palestinians are the victims here, resisting a violent occupation. Those same Europeans who claim to value human rights, and freedom, and that applaud armed resistance in Ukraine, that applauded armed resistance in south Africa, that are proud of the armed resistance during Nazi Germany, etc etc.

If you don't like the Palestinian armed resistance, then you should call for Israel to stop occupying and oppressing them. But instead the occupation is still expanding, and new illegal settlements in the west bank are being continuously created.

I would also invite you to read the letter published by a human rights lawyer and former high ranking UN officer on the topic of Palestine: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24103463-craig-mokhiber-resignation-letter

History repeats itself, sadly, and "never again" is apparently very selective.

#FreePalestine

@rvdp @yacc143 @axeln @GreenFire @quixote Ramses do you understand why Egypt blockades Gaza?

@ech I'm assuming that this is a genuine question. However, out of personal safety concerns, I cannot discuss Egypt's politics in a public space.

@quixote @axeln @GreenFire Implicit in your response is that you believe it's obvious that BN ought to be doing something materially different in order to "depose Hamas" or otherwise respond. I want to believe it, too. I just don't know what that other thing could be.

@ech @quixote @axeln
Netanyahu could have listened to Joe Biden when he flew there on October 8th and used the lessons we learned when we cleared ISIS out of Mosul.