Means of production; Except anyone in a true free society (not the Statism we have now) anyone can produce value for someone else to buy, asks others to help out (or not)...
In a free society, there are only voluntary exchange of goods and services, not theft, coercion, violence, kidnapping and murder, like (I presume!) you are advocating in form of Socialism/Communism.
Instead of demanding the State to steal for you; Start a commune, labor-owned means of production and so on
>>...not theft, coercion, violence, kidnapping and murder, like (I presume!) you are advocating in form of Socialism/Communism.<<
Why would you presume this? If you had just taken a quick look at the profile of the person you're replying to you would see information that contradicts this presumption. It may or may not make sense to you but it should be a clue to lead you to questions, maybe about some of your own assumptions and adopted narratives.
I mean right there in their pinned toot it explains that they believe in "rejection of both state authority and class distinctions" and "a stateless, classless society where the means of production are collectively owned and managed by the community through direct democracy, voluntary association, and decentralized decision-making."
Maybe don't be so quick to presume, at least if you're actually engaging in good faith.
I try to engage in good faith. And no Socialist/Communist ever have explained how their proposed system can work without State Violence.
Scenario; Community owns means of production. I start making hand-made shoes. Are the tools I create mine, or will they be stolen? At which point does "personal property" (stuff that isn't taken by others) becomes "community property"?
How to enforce that? Coercion? No, then how?
All such details are never mentioned.
@niclas @Radical_EgoCom @passenger
You can keep your tools. But if you're an asshole about it, there will probably be consequences.
Well, at some point those tools might make me wealthier, and you are no longer in the class-less society that you aspire so much.
"being an asshole"; Does providing value, by mutually voluntary exchange of goods and services, to others considered "being an asshole"? Because that is how the vast majority of capitalist enterprise is conducted today.
@niclas @Radical_EgoCom @passenger
I'm not going to indulge your fantasy version of capitalism.
@RD4Anarchy @Radical_EgoCom @passenger
The problem isn't that capitalism or communism are good or bad. Both function perfectly fine in small egalitarian situations. The problem is in scale. They scale differently but ultimately result in the same issue of wealth disparity.
Without an answer to "how does this work at scale with evil people throughout the system" the whole discussion is moot.
@shadowsonawall @Radical_EgoCom @passenger
The emergent system that has been named capitalism was always a global system and could never have existed without state and colonialism. It did not scale up from small egalitarian situations, it was forced upon and destroyed such situations.
The problem is that capitalism is bad.
@RD4Anarchy @Radical_EgoCom @passenger in some places that happened with capitalism, in some places it happened with communism, in some places it happened with theocracy. The issue isn't in the government type. It's with people who actively *want* to exploit other people for their own personal benefit.
@shadowsonawall @RD4Anarchy @passenger
This never happened with Communism. I assume you're referring to countries like the Soviet Union, which did not achieve Communism in it's existence, nor did any of the other similar countries. The Soviet Unions' economy in particular was state capitalist with a strong Socialist leaning, but it wasn't Communist.
@Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social @shadowsonawall@qoto.org @RD4Anarchy@kolektiva.social @passenger@kolektiva.social communism literally says there has to be no state
it's a stateless, classless society
@graphite @Radical_EgoCom @passenger @RD4Anarchy which is literally impossible in the face of evil people who actively want to exploit other people.
@shadowsonawall @graphite @passenger @RD4Anarchy
It's not literally impossible. There are other means to deal with evil people without a state or centralized authority, like the method of using a decentralized organization.
@Radical_EgoCom @graphite @passenger @RD4Anarchy oh? How would you deal with evil people without a state?
@shadowsonawall @Radical_EgoCom @graphite @passenger
State has never been about dealing with "evil people". State has always been a tool of exploitation and control by a ruling elite. Your question makes no sense.
@RD4Anarchy @Radical_EgoCom @graphite @passenger we agree that there are evil people? How do you handle them in a system that scales past neighbors?
@shadowsonawall @Radical_EgoCom @graphite @passenger
Why does there have to be *a system* that scales past neighbors?
"Evil people" was your characterization, I don't usually think in those terms. But for sure there will be some assholes. I believe there would be far fewer assholes if we were liberated from capitalism, but there would still be some, sure.
Anyway, I could point you to various techniques societies have used for millennia but I don't have the patience to listen to bad faith bullshit about me wanting us to go back to hunter-gatherer days.
@RD4Anarchy @Radical_EgoCom @graphite @passenger I'm not trying to act in bad faith. I'm trying to help you understand the limits of what you are advocating for. We don't have to continue the discussion but if you do think about it further understand that evil isn't always about the environment/system people are in. There are a ton of people who are naturally selfish, plenty who naturally believe they are superior to others. That's a reality of our tribal biology and it has played out throughout history under every yet conceived economic system to one end: people crushing other people for their own benefit.
@shadowsonawall @RD4Anarchy @graphite @passenger
I don't think you're understanding just how much influence a person's environment has on their behavior, because for most people it's far more than their biological makeup. As for the few people won't be changed from a new environment, everyone else will, and won't put up with the negative behavior of those who don't.
@Radical_EgoCom @RD4Anarchy @graphite @passenger I believe the tension is about how prevalent evil/selfishness is in the human experience. I can respect that you believe it is small relative to the whole. I disagree. I'll leave you with one last thought: do you believe that this type of system is unique to today's imagination? If not, why did it fail in the past? How could we prevent it from failing in similar ways going forward?
@shadowsonawall @RD4Anarchy @graphite @passenger
Communist experiments failed in the past due to the particular method people used to try and achieve Communism, that being the use of the state which, in every case, caused the restoration of the state and class society. The way to prevent similar failures in the future is to have an immediate transition into Communism instead of creating a transitional state.
@Radical_EgoCom @RD4Anarchy @graphite @passenger Let's say that the issue is in transition, how would one transition to an ideal Communist society "immediately" and without some kind of transition?
@shadowsonawall @RD4Anarchy @graphite @passenger
People would have to first create decentralized, non-hierarchal organizations that are united under the platform of Anarcho-Communism before the abolishion of the state happens, along with extreme and constant propaganda and education among the working class in order to both garter support for their cause and make people educated and capable enough to actually create, manage, and function within a Communist society once it is made.
@Radical_EgoCom @RD4Anarchy @graphite @passenger I wish you, all of us, luck with that transition strategy.
