As I attempt to go back off grid for the first time in decades, this time with a family in tow, I'm struck by just how much the solar, and by extension renewable energy, industry has changed.
What once was geared towards people living an alternative lifestyle is now centered around making yuppies in the suburbs believe that they're saving the world if they grid-tie some solar panels on their roof and charge their Tesla at home. It's populated by "business managers" who are only interested is seeing how many shoddily done jobs they can slap up in a short amount of time who mask that fact by pretending to care about the environment to their customers.
I have yet to have a positive interaction with anyone in the industry about actual self-sustainability. They just don't care. It's all so....corporate and phony now.
This is a real disappointment in my current life. Can't even drop out of society effectively anymore.
@BE This is what it felt like in 1996 and 1997 when the masses got on the internet. In a sense it's what looks like when you succeed in changing the world: the changed world still has the same people in it.
Thank you for that perspective. I've had a surprisingly hard time wrapping my head around my own thoughts here.
I've come to the realization today that this is probably because I was raised by a parent in the renewable energy world and 10yo me still believes that this is the space of the "good guys" who will save the world. I can see it clearly for what it is today, but it's still a little mind blowing.
@BE @lavenderlens To save the world you have to enlist the support of yuppies and "business managers" and corporate and phony people. The proliferation of solar energy will create its own problems eventually, but will also stop global warming, and might even improve individual and small-group autonomy.
@radehi @lavenderlens I certainly hope you're right. At least in my current experience I'm seeing the opposite. Unless you live in the suburbs, drive an electric car and want 20 panels on your McMansion's roof there's no one left to hook it up(legally) and very few people left to sell you equipment. The number of times I've been told "We used to do that, but now our business manager won't allow it" has been eye opening.
This is from the US lens. I realize the whole world isn't the same. I've actually been quite encouraged by some of the international perspective here on Mastodon.
At the same time, the whole pellet-burning point that Alan makes is so relevant. In our area people have cut down entire forests to feed the EU's pellet demand. All in a supposedly "green" effort, that is actually anything but.
I know this is the internet and nuance is banned or something :)
@BE @lavenderlens Yeah, I wonder how is all going to result. Utility-scale PV is scaling way up and tends to kill a lot less people than rooftop PV, but I think lots of people are still getting rooftop worldwide. The big trend is that new wind and solar generation is being installed faster than fossil-fuel generation, and that's what we need. But the panel price has been stalled at just below grid parity for years now.
@radehi @BE the involvement of big business in renewables is a bit of an elephant in the room alright. When we built our house in 2003 we didn’t go for PV but vacuum tubes to heat hot water in a memory cylinder. This proved to be about as much use as a chocolate teapot. You get hot water on hot days. There are about two of these such days annually in Donegal. 🤦🏻♂️
@lavenderlens @BE Yeah, it's possible to get hot water from vacuum tubes on cold sunny days, but then you need systems to circulate the water.
Big business has its role; we're technologically a long way away from being able to economically make artisanal PV panels from locally-sourced minerals. Is theoretically feasible, but we don't know how to do it.
@BE I work in the solar industry and do care about sustainability. However, like you, I am disappointed with most of the people that work in the industry that fail to grasp the importance of reduce/reuse/recycle and sustainability in electricity use.
Feel free to inquire on any questions for your off grid requirements and I will answer as best possible.
That's extremely kind of you and I intend to take you up on it! I'm 20 years out of practice and re-learning all while teaching my middle schooler through YouTube videos. Which, interestingly, seems to work a little faster than how I learned at first; Home Power and solar reading lights while in bed.
I don't know if it would pass your bar - but look up Babcock Ranch in Florida.
The community is solar powered and has power through and after Ian
Thanks for mentioning them. I'm actually quite familiar with them and have visited before!
This post has brought up a lot of good questions many of which I have a lot of thoughts on, but probably aren't best served as one off responses for what is actually a complex issue. The internet is not always great for nuance!
Solar is better than many alternatives that are available to us. Often, but not always(see @zonz post above) large scale solar is "better" but they're nuances there, too.
To the best of my fairly limited knowledge many places like Babcock Ranch exist is the US and their footprint is much more minimal than the average neighborhood/village/city and therefore a positive step in the right direction.
@BE So... isn't it still helpful to the effort to put those panels on my roof? Does "controlled by business managers" make the effort to use solar a meaningless gesture?
@BE Sorry, I'm not sure how this works. The above was in response to your comment about purveyors of solar panels on the home, and alt energy companies in general. Cheers.
This is a great question, frankly, to start a whole big discussion that maybe isn't best for short form writing. Nonetheless, here's my best attempt with the understanding that black and white doesn't really exist here, or in many places, despite the fact that people like good vs bad and nuance is often difficult.
Helpful? Are you otherwise using power from coal fired power plants? Sure, it's a step in the right direction. Is it pollution-less and totally guilt free as it's sold to be? Not really.
So let's take one nuanced perspective here as an example. My issue currently.
One, there's quite a few solar installers/renewable energy groups that service the area I am attempting to set up in. When you say "off grid" the majority of them hang up the phone. Why? That takes more time and effort, which slows down making money. If they were really in it for sustainability then they'd be more than happy to take the money of someone trying to live a sustainable life.
Two, a couple of them who don't just hang up are more than happy to say *exactly* that. "Love what you're doing! I got into this business for that, but, I don't do that anymore. I make a lot more money doing suburban grid-tie." Or, "Man, that's why I got in the business, but, we were bought out by a larger company and they don't allow us to do that anymore."
Three, catering to excess, as a way of business should be antithetical to what they're doing, right? But, a lot of these companies aren't interested in doing anything that doesn't generate frankly insane amount of electricity so that their check is bigger at the end of the job. Have a 2000 square foot home? Not interested! Have a 6000 square foot home and two Teslas to charge? Awesome, be right over! The deciding factor for one company I spoke with was two-fold. One, would I be willing to spend $200,000. Two, how many electric cars did I envision myself buying.
Soothing suburban soccer mom's conscience about their lives with sweet lies about how they're saving the world by putting 40 panels on their McMansion's roof isn't how I'd hoped the industry would mature, but, here we are.
TLDR; solar is good, excess is still bad. The panels and their materials, the fossil fuels involved with manufacturing, transporting, and installing are still real. In an honest industry that would all be front and center, not hidden behind "save the world" messaging.
@BE I think self-sustainability is way beyond the means of most people. For example, I have 12 solar panels that completely fill the roof of my small house, and generate way too little power on dull days in winter (and we get a lot of them). Similarly, although my garden is above average size, no way is it big enough to provide sufficient crops for self-sufficiency.
So although it may be a noble aim, for too many of us it's just a fantasy. That shouldn't prevent us doing what we can, though.
@tramontana Totally agree and let me clarify my point, because I clearly didn't make it well enough!
Doing everything you can is good.
Being told that you're saving the world just because you spend $200,000 on solar panels, *despite not doing anything else to even try* is not all that good.
Unfortunately, the solar industry is catering to the wealthy because soothing their conscience is profitable.
Your 12 solar panels and garden sound lovely. Will I ever be 100% self-sufficient? Probably not. This is modern society. Should it be so hard to try? I don't think so.
@BE preach it. Tell it how it is. And don’t forget to carbon offset. Couldn’t agree with you more. The whole pellet-burning fiasco in Northern Ireland in recent years testified to that. Superheated cowsheds and outbuildings year-round because there was a government grant for wood pellet-burning stoves.