It seems like Mastodon is losing its mindshare to #Bluesky among many academics.
I can't help but think this has to do with the self-imposed limitations of Mastdon — lack of quotes, ordered timeline, etc. Makes it less interesting to use, for no real advantage.
Sad, because the underlying decentralization is much more robust.
@tiago @academicchatter What's the argument against quotes on Mastodon again?
@LukasBrausch @academicchatter For every post you quote, a minority gets oppressed, or something like that.
Social media often includes opinions and sometimes rants, not just arguments and external evidence. Wikipedia !voting in 'WP:' space favours arguments+evidence.
Seems to me it's an issue of dominant influence on a conversation, by switching between groups of followers:
' When people use quotes to reply to other people, conversations become performative power plays. “Heed, my followers, how I dunk on this fool!” ' [1]
[1] https://fedi.tips/why-cant-i-quote-other-posts-in-mastodon
@boud @tiago @LukasBrausch @academicchatter As the article says, if they are going to implement it as an opt-in feature to prevent quoting without consent, I'm happy with that.
@asayakkara @boud @tiago @LukasBrausch @academicchatter
❤️ Quoting as long as it is consensual.
For those who don't fully understand consent:
⭐ The default setting is NO.
@crecente @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatter The idea of needing consent to *cite* to publicly shared information seems completely incongruous to me.
@tiago @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatter
That might be because "citing" implies content that was designed to be shared in a fashion that social media posts are not.
(e.g. a journal article vs an offhand comment)
Pragmatically: we will never have this functionality unless those resistant to it are given the choice to not have it imposed on them.
@crecente @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatter
Since Mastodon posts are shared without any explicit licenses, we cannot talk about how they were designed to be shared.
Right now google is indexing everything that we are writing. Good luck asking forcing them to stop.
Also, should authors have the *power* to demand how they public posts are *linked* by others? If so, the internet would be unsustainable.
It is strange to say that linking to something you have publicly posted is an “imposition”!
You say that we will never have this functionality.This is easily disproved, since other fediverse members such as hubzilla have supported quotes for ages (and have not been overrun by toxicity, BTW). So right now you can already be quoted there, and can not opt out of it. Since all your posts have URLS, you can also be quoted from blogs, facebook, newspapers, Xitter, etc.
In fact, I think it's precisely the opposite. It's a matter of time before we have unconstrained quoting and other features. The question is if it will be in the upstream version, or some fork. That's the beauty of free software in the end. The *user* has the freedom to determine what the software does, not the developers.
@tiago @crecente @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatter
You can link to posts. Nobody is preventing you from doing that.
The fact that that link doesn't display inline could be solved by any app.
You made the same claim here:
https://social.skewed.de/@tiago/111176605344945194
@ChrisWilms23 @crecente @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatter But it *isn't* displayed inline by most apps, including the default web interface. This is by choice, and is what I'm talking about. As soon as this is displayed inline, the quote problem is solved. It's trivial.
@tiago @ChrisWilms23 @crecente @boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatter
If this is what you have been talking about all this time, I have no problem with it; it's a client-side feature that you need.
But, Twitter's quoting functionality notifies the original tweet owner, that can be exploited (and people did) as a tool of aggression.
I just now noticed that your original toot mentions "ordered timeline" as a bad thing as well. You are missing the whole point of Mastodon's existance.
@asayakkara @ChrisWilms23 @crecente @boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatter I don't care at all about notification, just the utterly basic functionality of being able to display the link to a post inline. But this is precisely what the anti-quote brigade objects to.
Same thing with timeline ordering. It should be a client side preference.
If I want to find out what were the most boosted posts in the last 24 hours (say, because I've been away), this should be possible.
@tiago @crecente @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch
I am likely oversimplifying and missing a key point here, but wouldn't that simply be a matter of convincing one of the independent app developers to include this form of display?
@ChrisWilms23 @crecente @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch Yes, basically. This is why I think it's just a matter of time.
@tiago @ChrisWilms23 @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch
You are allowed to do these things if you wish.
With your own instance you can work to offer in-line quotes. And you can also work to implement "engagement-centric" timelines.
As for seeing this implemented by Mastodon proper, here are Eugen Rochko's thoughts.
@tiago icecubesapp already does this, but I don’t think a pure client-side solution is going to cut it. A quote-boost shouldn’t change, for instance, when the original quoted post changes, right?
@philippsteinkrueger @ChrisWilms23 @crecente @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch That's a good question, and introduces a distinction between an actual quote and a link that's displayed inline.
I'd be happy with inline links as a starting point.
That would solve the problem for you if you read other people's quote-boosts, for sure. But if you quote boost yourself, you'll never know how people will see it. Better imo to establish them properly server-side...
And the Mastodon developers have already in principle agreed to do it. What bugs me is how long things take. I bet we won't see quote-boost before 2025, and then probably opt-in... 🙄
@philippsteinkrueger @ChrisWilms23 @crecente @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch I understand, but you know, baby steps. A client side solution would remove part of the annoyance.
Development is taking long probably because they are trying to figure out a way to make it as least effective as possible. It's like developing decaffeinated coffee is more complicated than just making coffee. And the result is not compelling for most people.
Another option then is maybe firefish. That has quote posts and you can still follow everyone on mastodon. I'm seriously considering it, also to send a message to mastodon devs.
@philippsteinkrueger @ChrisWilms23 @crecente @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch
I have to get familiar with firefish.
But the problem with social networks is that they need to have a critical mass. This was the problem with mastodon for a long time.
You can follow people from mastodon, but will they see your quotes, for example?
No, they won't. That's why it's similar to the client-side solution.
@tiago @crecente @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatter
Now, pointing out that none of these platforms let you easily properly quote and comment on posts, with multiple interleaved bits, that is a different thing. I the end, Usenet was far superior for actual discussions. If I may so how my age...