Your university must be a very bad one. The PhD I got and the ones I advised definitely were big educational experiences, where the student received lots of benefit -- formal courses, technical lectures, personal advising, resources, experience, publishing support, etc. As for TA work, one may debate whether the amount was enough, whether there should have been workers benefit, etc, but the university did explicitly pay for the work. >>
>> As for the papers and research, while they benefited the university, the advisor, and hopefully humanity, they were much more valuable for the student -- and they would not have been published without much work and advice from the advisor, and the univ's resources.
In fact, in public and non-profit univs, the main benefit that the university gets from papers by PhD students is the ability to get more grant money to pay the students and buy equipment for them. >>
@JorgeStolfi @Hellawyn You’re making a hell of a lot of assumptions here… and I respectfully disagree with a lot of them. And of course publications help the authors. That applies to most researchers, from PhD students to profs. Same for benefiting from university resources 🤷🏼♀️ Of course PhD students are still learning, but they contribute a lot more than you’re acknowledging
@anne_kreft @JorgeStolfi
@academicchatter
The situation of a PhD candidate is indeed very special and leads to passionate debate.
Ignoring either of the aspects, "student being entitled to some form of tuition" and "employee with production objectives and associated rights" leads to serious problems: if students only, the risk is exploitation and financial struggle, if only employee, the risk is to forget that they are learning to become researchers and should be supervised adequately.
1/n
@jocelyn_etienne @JorgeStolfi @academicchatter Fair point! But I object to someone coming in and saying "your university must be a very bad one." Sweden, Norway and a few other countries have a very successful PhD education system where student are state employees (at 100%). Attrition is extremely low, compared to e.g. the US, publication output very high, and research funding *and supervision* were excellent for me. People need to inform themselves before making such blanket statements
@anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @JorgeStolfi @academicchatter
i can only secund that.
Simple fact is, Ph.D.'s work.
And more than 40h a week if they'd like a career. Wether for their own benefits—a later career, which many won't have in professional academia because of the cut-down of fixed positions at universities— or those of their supervisors, and institutions—how to get 20+ papers a year without having 5+ Ph.D.'s working *for* you?
You work, you're employed. No discussion needed.
@grimmiges @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @JorgeStolfi @academicchatter
As you say "if they'd like a career". The PhD students decide to be in the institution to be educated i.e. PhD students work to learn not to be paid
@Xna_NaJu @grimmiges @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @JorgeStolfi @academicchatter this discussion has revealed a lot of ignorance about variations in PhDs between disciplines & countries. For example, a UK humanities or social sciences PhD is unlikely to involve working under a PI on someone else's project &, unless funded, there will only be teaching if the student successfully applies for it (for which they'll be paid). Doing a PhD isn't regarded as a job for those reasons.
@SteveCooke @Xna_NaJu @grimmiges @jocelyn_etienne @JorgeStolfi @academicchatter Why would working under a PI be "a job" and working independently on your project (as I did, as a social scientist in Sweden) not be a job though? Like you say, there are variations, and some countries like Sweden or Norway have successfully instituted a model in which all PhD students (whether parts of projects or not) are state employees. And I personally think that's the way it should be
@anne_kreft @Xna_NaJu @grimmiges @jocelyn_etienne @JorgeStolfi @academicchatter because you're studying primarily for a qualification, not labouring to produce an something for someone whose being paid for it.
@SteveCooke @anne_kreft @Xna_NaJu @jocelyn_etienne @JorgeStolfi @academicchatter
So, we also shouldn't pay and sustain sports professionals as they are mainly training for their own fame? I like that.
In case you haven't noticed, we are talking about real PhDs not the ones many politicans and other VIPs carry around.
Any proper PhD thesis is a contribution to common knowledge, hence, a service to humankind. At least as much as winning the gold medal for whatever country.
@grimmiges @SteveCooke @anne_kreft @Xna_NaJu @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
I dunno, but I do not think that coaches should pay the athletes they train. Or that gyms should pay their patrons. No matter how hard the athletes and patrons "work". >>
@JorgeStolfi @grimmiges @anne_kreft @Xna_NaJu @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter - I'm not sure that reply quite works. He's making an analogy between an elite athlete & a PhD researcher - in those cases the state often pays the coaches & to sustain the athlete. That seems like it fits the funded PhD model in the UK, but I'm not sure *all* PhD proposals ought to be treated like at.
@JorgeStolfi @SteveCooke @anne_kreft @Xna_NaJu @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
As I said, we must be stupid then. Don't tell the EU, not that they scrap the Horizon PhD schools.
Related #FunFact: U.S. university coaches make millions/yrs (because the big players in coll. sport generate billions), their athletes active in "college sport" get an "education" (for later premium leagues?!)
#FunFact 2: Professors at those places make much less albeit educating more.
@grimmiges @SteveCooke @anne_kreft @Xna_NaJu @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
US college sports is a very different (and aberrant) business. Not germane to this topic.
Grimmiges and Anne, sorry, but enrolling in a PhD (education) is very different from being hired by a lab to do research work (employment). I insist: univs where the first ends up being just the second are bad univs. But I am sure that most univs in your countries are NOT like that -- even if it may seem so to you. >>
@grimmiges @SteveCooke @anne_kreft @Xna_NaJu @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
Sure, PhD students are required to produce original research and publish papers -- but because that is the only way one can learn all the skills and knowledge that one needs to become a researcher. THIS is the goal of the PhD program -- not the work produced per se.
@JorgeStolfi @grimmiges @SteveCooke @anne_kreft @Xna_NaJu @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
You and your argumentation are, by the way, the reason why young researchers don't want to stay in academia.
Where is the respect for our work? Without me and my phd co-workers nothing would be researched in my department.
But why should we stay, if we are not respected by our bosses for our work, because it is just "education"?
@Niqulei @JorgeStolfi @grimmiges @SteveCooke @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
Research can be done with professors assistant, research associate, post-doc and technicians
@Xna_NaJu @Niqulei @JorgeStolfi @SteveCooke @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
Not in STEM. As a (good) German professor you spend your paid time (and more) lecturing, supervising and managing/organising. No time for research.
The post-doc(s) is your prime donkey. Don't even need a whip.
The PhDs are the milk cows.
No PhDs = too few papers = no grant money = cannot hire any PhD/post-doc: research is dead.
That's the WEIRD world we live in.
@grimmiges @Xna_NaJu @Niqulei @JorgeStolfi @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter - that sounds horrible. In my field (philosophy), in the UK, the commonest academic contacts allocate around 40% of time to research, post-docs & PhDs pursue their own research, & most research is single authored. Unlike STEM, PhD supervision is typically treated as part of teaching rather than research in workload models.
@SteveCooke @Xna_NaJu @Niqulei @JorgeStolfi @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
I guess in humanities there's still more of the old ways of what it meant to be an academic.
The thing I really like about Sweden was that when it comes to PhD financing, they don't make any difference. You apply for a PhD position and you get a proper PhD salary, irrespective whether it's for 3 years of pondering something or wet-lab/computer work.
@Niqulei @JorgeStolfi @grimmiges @SteveCooke @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
The good news is that every person can decide what they want to do and what not to
@Niqulei @grimmiges @SteveCooke @anne_kreft @Xna_NaJu @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
Niqulei, try making the same argument for other education: "Young people don't want to stay in college because the effort they put into studying and attending classes does not get any respect. The college calls that work "education" and does not want to pay the students for it. But without the students, no learning would happen in college."
@SteveCooke @anne_kreft @Xna_NaJu @jocelyn_etienne @JorgeStolfi @academicchatter
And I have to add: If we only would pay for actual "labour that produces", humanities would not be the first thing that springs to my mind that could be scrapped.
Also: a PhD thesis is literally a "product". Sometimes quite a big one (espec. in humanities). I don't know about the UK but in Germany and Sweden, it must also must be made accessible to anyone, hence, is a public product.
@grimmiges @SteveCooke @Xna_NaJu @jocelyn_etienne @JorgeStolfi @academicchatter All of this! Plus, in our department, PhD students were almost as productive as many more senior scholars and more productive than some, in terms of publications, i.e. in terms of "producing" something and contribution to the advancement of knowledge. I can't wrap my head around people saying that's not a job tbh
@anne_kreft @SteveCooke @Xna_NaJu @jocelyn_etienne @JorgeStolfi @academicchatter
I do. Because certain (very) old men brought it up at the time I made my Ph.D. "In my days, it was an honour to be allowed to make a Ph.D., we would never have asked to be also paid for it." said Herr von und zu something.
But I was spoiled, my supervisor was old, too, but a (Hanseatic) woman. "A PhD requires 100%+", she said, "one cannot afford to work (sic!) a 2nd (sic!sic!) job."
@anne_kreft @grimmiges @Xna_NaJu @jocelyn_etienne @JorgeStolfi @academicchatter I assume you don't want to claim that all PhD's must be funded or that everyone who wants to do a PhD should be accepted. So we'd still have competition for limited funded places. So this argument seems to boil down to a disagreement over whether funded PhDs should be described as jobs or not. I'm not sure whether that's a substantive change or mere semantics.
@SteveCooke @anne_kreft @grimmiges @Xna_NaJu @jocelyn_etienne @JorgeStolfi @academicchatter
Scandinavian funding models have been referenced, but I'd point out that here at the Univ of British Columbia and like most major Canadian research universities, student MUST be funded, Steve.
Policy is focused on a _minimum_ funding requirement (https://www.grad.ubc.ca/awards/minimum-funding-policy-phd-students), but that is merely a floor for funding ($22k). Average for PhD students is around $34k.
@jdierkes @anne_kreft @grimmiges @Xna_NaJu @jocelyn_etienne @JorgeStolfi @academicchatter - that's interesting. In the UK we have a mix of students who receive funding (from their host institution, a research council, or some other source), & those who fund their own studies. It seems a bit unfair to deny places to people who wish to pursue their passion but can't win funding.
I hear you on fairness regarding pursuit of passion, but funding requirement forces supervisors/programs to commit to students to actually (help to) enable that pursuit of passion.
Yes, that might reduce the number of students to whom that pursuit is available, but PhD programs are highly selective in any case.
@jdierkes @academicchatter - I just wish we had that kind of money, government policies have seriously undermined the sector over here. For example, if a university doesn't score highly enough in the research ranking (a system designed to maintain the privilege of elite universities) then students can't even apply for research council funding to study at them. Institutional funding is extremely limited too.
Yes, clearly policy presupposes adequate funding, tho many of us continue to advocate for more funding from 🇨🇦 & provincial govts, of course.
Here at UBC (again, similar at other 🇨🇦 research unis) funding=mix of uni budget, govt fellowships, & donations/endowment income.
Discussions abt employment vs. not-employment that started this thread also quite active in 🇨🇦 around current unionization drives for Research Assistants (Teaching Assistants already unionized).
@SteveCooke @anne_kreft @grimmiges @Xna_NaJu @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
Whether the STATE should support PhD students, how many it should support, and how much it shoud pay them, are separate questions.
(A sensible State will do what it needs to ensure that everyone gets education up to a certain level. But it makes no sense for it to support anyone who wants to take a PhD, just as it makes no sense for engineering or medical degrees. >>
@SteveCooke @anne_kreft @grimmiges @Xna_NaJu @jocelyn_etienne @academicchatter
>> On the other hand, it makes sense for the State to train somewhat more researchers, engineers, MDs, ... than the number of openings for those jobs. It is OK if some of those who trained for X do not wish to work as X, or wish but are not able to. It reduces the risk of shortage of Xs, and improves the average quality of the working Xs.
@SteveCooke @grimmiges @Xna_NaJu @jocelyn_etienne @JorgeStolfi @academicchatter Yes, I do indeed very much support full funding of all PhD positions, which (again) is the standard in Scandinavian countries. And the implication of that is that not everyone who wants to do a PhD will be able to do one. Same as not everyone who wants to be a physician or an engineer or whatever else can be one because there are a limited number of positions. And it forces institutions to secure funding for PhDs
@SteveCooke @grimmiges @Xna_NaJu @jocelyn_etienne @JorgeStolfi @academicchatter It's not like the pure student model where PhD students don't have to be funded allows anyone to pursue a PhD anyway. It generally favors those who have the financial means, no care obligations etc.
@anne_kreft @SteveCooke @grimmiges @Xna_NaJu @jocelyn_etienne @JorgeStolfi @academicchatter In line with that, it's a scam to offer huge numbers of PhD positions to people who heavily overestimate the likelihood there'll be (good) academic jobs for them. Fewer but properly funded PhD positions pushes some of that bottleneck forward, in a much more decent and pro-quality way IMO - the only people who are disadvantaged are those building their career on the backs of naive PhD students.
@TEG @SteveCooke @grimmiges @Xna_NaJu @jocelyn_etienne @JorgeStolfi @academicchatter Couldn't agree more! The academic job market (at least in Political Science) has been absolutely ridiculous the last few years
@anne_kreft @TEG @SteveCooke @grimmiges @Xna_NaJu @jocelyn_etienne @JorgeStolfi @academicchatter But unis aren't not (or ought not be) educating PhDs just to meet the needs of the HE sector. There's probably much to improve in that regard, but universities shouldn't be the only or even the predominant job market for PhDs.
@anne_kreft @TEG @SteveCooke @grimmiges @Xna_NaJu @jocelyn_etienne @JorgeStolfi @academicchatter The scam, if there is one, is giving PhD students the wrong expectations about their likely future job market. What I hear anecdotally from PhDs working outside of academia is that the supply really creates its own demand.
@johank76 @TEG @SteveCooke @grimmiges @Xna_NaJu @jocelyn_etienne @JorgeStolfi @academicchatter Agree! There are always those who'd like to stay in academia and don't manage too. But there are also those who know from the start they don't want to go the academic route. The problem is that often the latter are treated with suspicion or even neglect by some supervisors (though not by all, of course!)
@anne_kreft @johank76 @TEG @SteveCooke @grimmiges @Xna_NaJu @jocelyn_etienne @JorgeStolfi @academicchatter I I always tell prospective Ph.D. students to present the "I want to be a faculty just like you" narrative regardless of their actual goal. In private and safe spaces you can say otherwise, because you are so right.
@TEG @anne_kreft @grimmiges @Xna_NaJu @jocelyn_etienne @JorgeStolfi @academicchatter - if that policy were pursued in the UK in the current funding framework, there would be far, far fewer PhDs studied outside of elite (elitist) universities. Oh for a well-funded higher education sector.
@TEG @anne_kreft @SteveCooke @academicchatter
On the other hand, PhD holders should have other options than academia. France hasn't been good for that (except in a few fields, like chemistry) for a long time, but there is significant progress to note. Now only at the time of defence only 50% of them are planning to stay in academia. This is not just the result of poor prospects, there's also fair prospect in the private sector or as experts in the public sector.
@jocelyn_etienne @TEG @anne_kreft @SteveCooke @academicchatter
This is a US perspective, but I think it's important to make the point of that the unemployment rate for Ph.D. holder is less than 2% fairly consistently.
I think the problem is that faculty in Ph.D. programs over focus on tenure track positions as the "best" or "worthy" pathway, when less than 10% of graduates of even some of the best programs end there.
In fairness for students there should be more transparency and support for other careers, and I don't mean just the growing world of post-doc researchers trying to get academic jobs.
In my field, education, I have seen graduates work for a very wide range of employers including tech, think thanks, school districts, museums, and many non-TT jobs at universities like me.
@ZingerLearns @TEG @anne_kreft @SteveCooke @academicchatter
France isn't as good, but 3 years after defence 93% #PhD are in employment, with 66% on a stable job. Median wages are not huge, €2150 (sociology) to 2700 (maths) depending on the field, but 95% are on mid/upper executive jobs. 47% are in academia, 19% in private-sector research-related jobs, 15% are in public sector outside academia (used to be mostly school teaching, but a growing number of experts I believe - no figures on this).
@jocelyn_etienne @ZingerLearns @TEG @anne_kreft @SteveCooke @academicchatter
A nice perspective is expressed here: https://thesiswhisperer.com/2020/05/13/stop-letting-the-ghosts-of-old-academia-haunt-you/ (I translated into spanish).
PhD programms should increase the amount of transferible skills. Not just teaching how to be an academic.
If they do so, the overall contributions of PhD programms to society would increase exponentially
@ZingerLearns
10% PhD holders making it eventually to academia is very low, now. In 🇫🇷 that's 23% of the French nationals after 3 years - lower than used to, but still.
Can it partly be due to foreign PhD holders going back to academia in their country of origin?
In 🇫🇷 that's an important part of the data, 40% defences are by foreign students, half of which leave and nearly half those get stable academic job abroad, so again about 20-25%.
@jocelyn_etienne @ZingerLearns @TEG @SteveCooke @academicchatter Wow, those sound like shockingly low slaries
@anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @ZingerLearns @TEG @SteveCooke @academicchatter
The point of orientation in France is the SMIC, the state-wide minimum income.
It's low compared to Scandinavia (vice versa, I was shocked what a PhD earns in Sweden when I came from Germany) but not too worse.
When you earn just the SMIC, you don't pay e.g. any taxes.
@anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @ZingerLearns @TEG @SteveCooke @academicchatter
Re: Much worse.
In Germany (zeroes), when you were e.g. on a PhD stipendium of the DBU, you got less than the 50% of the university-employed PhDs, about 1400€ a month. Tax-free but also didn't count for any social-benefit (rent, unemployment) and you had to pay your own insurance. If you had a caring boss, they would give you a 10h-job as "geprüfter HiWi", so you were insured.
@grimmiges @jocelyn_etienne @ZingerLearns @TEG @SteveCooke @academicchatter Oh, so these are PhD salaries? That sounds more reasonable, I thought those were post-defense average salaries.
@anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @ZingerLearns @TEG @SteveCooke @academicchatter
Postdocs are typically starting with 1.5-times the SMIC but there's some range pending on the organisation. And then we have the odd thing in France about your Alma Mater: for instance, as a German, my partner was ranked like coming from a 2nd grade French university, starting with a yearly salary 3000€ below that of somebody from a Grand école.
@anne_kreft @grimmiges @ZingerLearns @TEG @SteveCooke @academicchatter
No, they are salaries 3 years after defence for those with full time employment, in 2019.
@jocelyn_etienne @grimmiges @ZingerLearns @TEG @SteveCooke @academicchatter I see! I just had to Google France's average salary, and it turns out those post-PhD salaries are not as low as I thought (I was applying German standards 🤦♀️ )
@anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @ZingerLearns @TEG @SteveCooke @academicchatter
Worth to keep in mind than in France we (officially) work only 35h/week, not the 39h paid in Germany or 40h paid&worked in Sweden.
And then there's the differences in how one computes, "pre-tax"/"gross" or "net wage" is not exactly the same everywhere either.
@anne_kreft @ZingerLearns @TEG @SteveCooke @academicchatter
Yes, salaries are low even for French standards. That puts this population in the 60-70% deciles in French private sector salaries. These are salaries once social insurance is deducted, so you have a fairly good cover for health/pension/...
But still, they may be less paid than people with the same masters degree having started in the same company when they enrolled for their PhD. Which is not very good!
@jocelyn_etienne @ZingerLearns @TEG @SteveCooke @academicchatter Ah OK, thanks for clarifying!
@anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @ZingerLearns @TEG @SteveCooke @academicchatter
And to add another unbelievable for Scandinavians common practise in those days:
If you filled 2 years on the 50% PhD univ. pos., you could go the next 6 month on unemployment (which was "only" 300 or so bucks less).
When money was tight, they woud split the PhD granted for three years on two candidates and alternately placed them on unemployment or used it to fill gaps between projects.
@anne_kreft : how does it work in Sweden for someone who already has a stable job (e.g. teaching at secondary school or university level, or an engineer job in a research organisation) and wants to enrol on a PhD? Are they able to do it while keeping their job?
For some fields in France, like humanities, those situations account for a substantial number of theses.
@SteveCooke @grimmiges @Xna_NaJu @JorgeStolfi @academicchatter
@jocelyn_etienne @SteveCooke @grimmiges @Xna_NaJu @JorgeStolfi @academicchatter Good question, that I don’t know
@anne_kreft @SteveCooke @grimmiges @Xna_NaJu @JorgeStolfi @academicchatter
Afaik one problem in 🇫🇷 is that, because preventing those people to enrol for unfunded PhD would be a problem (since the gvt won't increase the funding in these fields), then there's no clear rule to say that all PhD studies should be funded. And so, people with unreliable financial backup enrol for PhDs and get sometimes trapped in conflicting situations (it's unsustainable to continue but who'd drop years of work?)
@jocelyn_etienne @anne_kreft You can enroll and keep your job. If your employer allows it, the unis are happy to employ you as a PhD candidate on half time, which means that instead of 5 years you can stretch your financed employment to 10 years. I had PhD colleagues who did just that. You can also enroll while employed full time, but then you would be expected to be a self-financing PhD candidate, not an employee. Self-financed PhD candidate don't have a time limit and can apply at any time.
@Xna_NaJu @anne_kreft @jocelyn_etienne @JorgeStolfi @academicchatter
Also: "Don't ask what the university can do for you, ask what you can do for your palace of education." (J.F.Kennedy, A Dean's Dream)