Just a reminder, the house vote on impeachment wasnt even supported by all democrats. 2 democrats voted against it and all republicans voted against it. They couldnt even get support from democrats and they knew damn well they couldnt get support for 2/3 of the senate.

I hate trump and want him out of office as much as anyone, but the impeachment caused me to loose all respect for democrats.

It looks more like a desperate attempt to manipulate the 2020 election and win, rather than any real attempt at impeachment. Sad thing is they probably hurt their cause more than helped. I know I have lost what little respect for the democrats I had despite my hatred of trump.

#uspol #trump #impeach #impeachment

@freemo how can you look at that and blame the democrats and not blame republicans for being just as arbitrarily biased due to party lines? Trump clearly did something wrong, it would be totally absurd for no one to try to call him out officially on it. I would be way more chilled to the bone if no one raised a finger to try to bring him to trial and just let him do all of this insanity without any consequence. Absolutely nuts to blame democrats for this, even if they are politicking, as they are not unique and trump is doing shady stuff regardless.

@ae WEll several points.

First and this is fundemental, I dont think its as clear taht trump did something wrong as you suggest. In short he asked the ukranian president if there is any legitimate evidence that Biden committed crimes, he did not ask nor suggest that the ukrain fabricate these crimes in any way, only if evidence existed.

How is that "clearly" something he did wrong? While I do think he should have probably deferred that to someone else so it wouldnt have the drama associated with it, he also probably thought he was more likely to get cooperation coming from him as the president.

Considering he didnt ask anyone to fabricate or make up anything and was only asking for legitimate evidence of crime, I'm not sure what it is that he really did wrong in the first place.

Furthermore the democrats were unable to get even support with their own party. While not a single republican voted to support the impeachment several democrats voted against the impeachment and one even switched their affiliated party in in response shortly after the vote.

They knew they couldnt even get democrat support, they knew they sure as hell wouldnt get republican support, they knew from the begining they would never stand a chance of getting 2/3rds support. So why even waste our time, and now that they did they prevent it from going to the senate for fear they might loose? If that is the vote that is the vote, the house has no power nor right to control the senate case. IF their going to loose so be it at least then we see the impeachment for what it was, a three ring circus and a desperate attempt for the democrats to try to win the 2020 election when it wasnt looking very good for them at the time.

@freemo I understand that you think it is a farce and a power play just for politicking and for democrats to compete in 2020. And I see how that could absolutely be the case, I am cynical and the last impeachment was exactly as you just described, so would be par for the course. But while I do not think just because it is common belief it makes it right, I think it is important for someone with such cynical views as your own to remember that your perspective on the events is the minority view, and regardless of congressional votes, most people think what is happening is warranted. The majority can often be wrong, but it's important when you are describing what amounts to a conspiracy requiring giving the benefit of the doubt to a man who has been famously corrupt and manipulative his entire life, that maybe the minority position is the minority for a reason. The average person on the street is more likely to view the acts you described as fishy and wrong than not, and while I personally wouldn't put much weight on the average person for most opinions, it's just something to keep in mind that most people think donald trump is acting selfishly with corrupt motives for his own personal benefit and to the detriment of the country.

But to the actual actions of donald trump. Not only is it not his job to investigate bank employees in foreign countries, if the outcome of the investigation personally benefits him and makes an election process less fair, it is illegal, and there is evidence that the way that trump approached it was in fact illegal, which is why he is being taken to trial. He specifically asked for Ukraine to announce publicly that they were investigating a Biden, and this is really crucial. Because if Trump just wanted to end corruption, at no point does it require announcing an investigation before it has begun or found any evidence. The whole announcement think makes it clear Trump was not pursuing it to make the world a better place, but specifically to make him look good and make the Bidens look bad, which is the fictional villain stuff of comic books, or how crappy politicians (historically) manipulate elections. Barring that one aspect I almost would be as cynical as you, maybe Trump just came across some info in his position of power and wanted to use his knowledge and reach to make sure the problem was fixed. He didn't ask anyone to fabricate anything, he asked them to announce the investigation into the family of his #1 political opponent without any evidence discovered at all, which is, when you think about it, very similiar, at least as far as mass media and political outcome is concerned.

You leave out the one republican (Amash) that switched to independent to support trump's impeachment, so both the republicans and democrats had one defector.

What makes it hard is that it really is a dicey game. Some 30% of the population will absolutely not support you if you go against Trump, even if he shot someone on 5th avenue. Completely nixing 30% of the population is practically political suicide, so as a professional politician one would have to think long and hard to do anything publicly against trump, even if you have video evidence of him shooting down an unarmed person in the street. Even with that footage you lose any chance of support from a third of the country, it is a terribly dangerous move.

Democrats don't want to do it, because they are essentially centrists on the political spectrum, and hope they can get support from that 30% some day some way, but they figure they can risk it since that 30% they can never recover probably already were the 30% that would never vote for them. It is a hard decision for them because it's going to seem divisive and arbitrary and like they are trying to interfere with the election, and so they discuss it back and forth and almost don't even do it, but then eventually the phone calls and everything come out, which in their mind and the mind of more than 50% of the population, are condemning and sincerely show a man abusing his position of power, and (at least some of them) feel they have to do what's right, and have done the math and figured that 30% probably was a lost cause as far as earning their votes goes. So they go through with presenting the evidence that the president broke the law.

The republicans on the other hand *cannot afford to do anything* about trump shooting a person in the street. It is actual political suicide. More than half of their voters really like trump no matter what he does, so if they do anything to upset that base they cannot compete in politics anymore. They have literally no choice but to ignore trump shooting someone dead in the street. If they don't ignore it, they lose their jobs. It is a no brainer and does not take much thought. Some are thinking "I can't afford my mortgage or my kids education unless I do whatever it takes to keep my job, which is already in a precarious position as the entire planet moves away from conservatism." It's the last little island where a job like that can exist, and the world is changing so there may not be any other opportunities like it ever again. So of course you have no choice but to keep your job. I don't even blame them it's practically in the 10 commandments of capitalism that one sacrifice ones morals just to keep a job. I blame the system for forcing these poor men to ignore what I'm sure many of them know is explicit corruption just because they are too desperate to keep their positions in a world that is outgrowing them. You can see how that is not debatable right? The republicans don't just have more to lose if they try to prosecute Trump for shooting someone, they have *everything* to lose. Their hands are utterly tied. It's the downside of a two party system. While some republicans (maybe a majority even, who knows) think Trump is innocent and the whole impeachment is a farce, there is no doubt there are men there that think Trump is corrupt and deserves a trial, but they cannot do anything. They are trapped, their freedom totally squashed due to party politics. You *must* be able to imagine how that *could* be true, and how likely it is that at least one republican in the house would have voted for impeachment if they were totally free to do so. And how the same is not as true for the dems voting against impeachment, as they are not in as much as a sticky situation and so are not as pressured to vote on party lines? Of course it's mirrored on both sides, but the numbers are plain as day: democrats felt more free to vote sincerely, they had more variety in their votes than the repubs. I don't see how you can look at the numbers and determine anything other than the republicans were voting for their own party exclusively while the democrats were voting with more open minds. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/12/18/us/politics/trump-impeachment-vote.html

I'm not big on politics but we interact on here and I saw your post and I had to say something. I don't believe you can consider all the facts and where all of these men are coming from and then put more of the "party line politics" blame on the dems over the republicans. If you consider the facts it is overwhelmingly clear that the gross politicking is much more heavily represented by the republicans who have much more to lose. And trust me, I completely see your point and a part of me thinks all the bastard politicians are to blame and both sides are guilty of being corrupt assholes, but if I have to get specific I find it extremely hard to see how the democrats are worse in this scenario.