#VW cancels plans to build a dedicated #EV factory. #Volkswagen has been racing to cut costs after falling behind #Tesla and China in the electric car market.
https://techcrunch.com/2023/09/29/vw-bails-on-its-plan-for-a-2-1b-ev-plant-in-germany/
@Setok The dirty truth is that BEVs are not a competitive technology. It is entirely the result of government mandates and subsidies. Take them away and it will die off shortly thereafter.
The future are ideas like hydrogen cars, either in FCEV or combustion from. Maybe efuels/synfuels too.
@Hypx subsidies have all but disappeared here, yet more and more people buy EVs. They’re smooth, powerful, quiet, you can charge at home, much fewer moving parts. Subsidies or not, I wouldn’t want to move back. Hydrogen is incredibly inefficient in comparison and you still can’t charge at home.
@Setok No. That's a pure fantasy argument. With the IRA the subsidies are larger than ever. Also, massive subsidies in China, plus subsidies for factories and charging stations.
People have just fallen for the propaganda. That only idea can ever exist and that nothing else, not even other types of EVs, can be allowed. It's an absurdity the moment you take a step back and think about it.
In reality, it is PR in service of BEV companies and the Chinese government, nothing more.
@Hypx keep in mind I’m a petrol head. I drive a Caterham 7 for years. I love mechanical things, the sounds, smells and drama of ICE cars. But even for me it took me all of 30 minutes driving a BEV to recognise it will be the future for the vast majority of people.
@Setok Just so we are clear: An FCEV is also an EV. It drives exactly like how a BEV drives. If the driving experience is the gamechanger, then FCEVs are also a gamechanger.
@Hypx there are non EV hydrogen vehicles, but your point does stand. But it sounded like you were also arguing for ICEs.
BEVs exist today. Infrastructure is everywhere. Tech is understood and they work well. Something else may appear some day, but right now there is nothing better.
@Setok Hydrogen cars exist in both EV and ICE forms. It is extremely flexible as an idea.
FCEVs also exist today. Infrastructure will be far cheaper than attempting to power every car on Earth with batteries. The tech for FCEVs is also well understood and it works well.
You are really being stuck in the past here. BEV fans have failed to realize that we are not in the 2010s anymore.
As usual, the only person you're convincing is yourself. No one believes your assertions that it's cheaper to use hydrogen for cars, or that it's cheaper to transport it than electricity. Don't know why you bother.
@mackaj @Hypx the reasoning is quite simple too. You need electricity to make hydrogen (it’s abundant, but not easily captured). Then you need to transport that hydrogen and store it at refueling stations. Both require more energy and are tricky. And costly investments. Then it gets changed back to electricity in the car.
Whereas you could just bypass all of that and stick the electricity directly into the vehicle.
@Setok @mackaj Sorta. You can make hydrogen from thermal processes, like from nuclear reactors. But the main goal is from electricity mainly because it can come from excess or curtailed power. It is basically a free energy source if done right.
You cannot "skip' these steps. You need a grid and grid energy storage to power a BEV with renewable energy, plus a giant battery. In reality, FCEVs can give you a cheaper pathway to powering a car with green energy.
@Setok @mackaj "Almost." Actually, 1 kW over 8 hours is only 8 kWh, or about 30-40 miles of range. Not enough for everyone.
The problem is that you still need fast charging, and everyone will need all the kWh needed for a days driving. Whether all at once or over multiple hours. The problems don't magically go away.
In the end, you are effectively refusing the accept any alternatives. Not even another type of EV.
@Hypx @mackaj 30–40 miles is more than what the majority drive per day. Even I average less and I live in the countryside. And it’s not 8 hours. More like 12. And that’s assuming no work at home days or weekends when it’s even more.
Most BEV owners only use fast charging on trips.
I’m not against alternatives, if and when they become feasible. BEVs work extremely well today and with many good options to buy and content users.
@Setok @mackaj Sure, the majority, but not everyone. Why deny people who have more driving needs an alternative option?
But you are acting like you are strongly opposed to alternatives. FCEVs are feasible right now. It solves nearly all of the major shortcomings of BEVs. It should be widely accepted as a valuable technology. It is only BEV propaganda that is trying to stop them from happening.
@Hypx @mackaj the problem is the only shortcoming it solves is fast refueling. If even that. And you get the new problem about not being able to fuel at home. Plus an expensive and inefficient manner of using the energy. Some companies tried selling it. People aren’t buying. If you get it to work, more power to you. I’m not trying to stop you. But you were the one jumping in and criticising BEVs on a post that had nothing to do with hydrogen.
@Setok @mackaj Fast refueling is no small advantage. And you can refuel at home if you really wanted to. Home electrolysis solutions have been proposed before. The problem is that it's pretty pointless if hydrogen stations are as common as fuel stations.
The truth is that consumers are not buying BEVs. There is an alternative solution. But the world is denying that alternative. It mirrors VW's obsession with diesel over EVs originally. Now its doing the same with BEVs over FCEVs.
@Hypx @mackaj home charging exists today. No proposal. A charger costs around €500 or less.
Fast refuelling is smaller an advantage than you think. We drove 4000km around many countries and not once did we have to wait for the car to charge. We were always eating or taking a break or sleeping at the time.
Saying consumers aren’t buying BEVs is preposterous. Sales are growing very rapidly, Model Y most sold car in the world, 30% here, 80% Norway. No end in sight
@Setok @mackaj That's just the charger. The grid upgrades, especially if it is to be from renewable energy, are vastly more expensive.
These are just pointless anecdotes. In reality, the economics of the entire idea has failed. There will have to be trillions of dollars in subsidies or else it will come to end one way or another.
@Hypx @mackaj no grid upgrades have been needed to accommodate the rapid increase of BEV sales already. Several sources have stated the grid here can handle future growth too. I pointed you to one.
I’m not sure why you repeat claims about mythical super expensive grid upgrades when the experts here state the exact opposite. And there are thousands of public charging spots. No hydrogen anywhere and hydrogen stations shown to be very expensive to build.
You're not going to get anywhere with Hypx. The only other people I've ever seen to be so single-minded are lobbyist who are being paid to be so. I can offer no proof that Hypx has a financial stake in the hydrogen economy, but I cannot imagine someone who did being any more committed tot he cause. It really is their one thing.
