@extrn@qoto.org When do you imagine all of this will happen? @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social
@adiz @don @rbe_expert It depends on the western support for Ukraine. The west has been very shy in that support. It is telling when you review the support by % of GDP: the former eastern bloc leads: All small countries that know what to expect from the empire. Meanwhile the likes of Macron and Sholtz are playing politics an "talking on the phone" and "keeping the channels open". Clowns. US has their own reasons for their support - they already carried the burden of one cold war - perhaps they don't want another.
@extrn@qoto.org I wouldn't exactly call the support "shy"---the United States has spent more on Ukraine in a year than they did over a decade in their war against Afghanistan. @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social
@adiz @don @rbe_expert USA still refuse to provide more effective weapons like ATACMS. Ukraine needs also abilities to hit deep inside ruZZian territory: to destroy airstrips for strategic bombers and training centers.
@extrn@qoto.org I don't want America to provide more money and weapons to Ukraine. I'm already upset that America has spent the amount of tax dollars on some corrupt Eastern European rotating-puppet-state that they have. @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social
@adiz @don @rbe_expert And what state that will be? And if you don't do it now, eventually you'll have to do it - just like in WW2. And it will be much more expensive. I think the american administration understands this very well, but they move slowly because of politics - both internal and international.
@extrn@qoto.org I don't think we will have to do anything at all. @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social
@adiz @don @rbe_expert Not helping Ukraine means ruZZia taking it. Then Moldova. Increasing their influence. Getting cocky. Starting shit in US (Trump). It is vastly more expensive than just proving them wrong right in the spot of their first transgression. (not that it's their first - they already escalated from human rights issues in the 2000s to the war with Georgia, to the poisonings on western soil, to annexations of Crimea and starting shit in Donbas, to elections interference in US and otger countries...). Much cheaper to kill 500000 orcs and be done with it.
@extrn@qoto.org We aren't taking anything. Pretty racist of you to refer to Slavic people's as "orcs". You're clearly a typical European supremacist. @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social
@adiz @don @rbe_expert I do not refer to slavic people as orcs. I'm slavic people... :) ruZZian rapists in Ukraine are orcs. Ask anyone ghat cares. .
@extrn @adiz @don From my perspective as a Marxist this whole war is a huge tragedy that didn't need to happen if the USSR's regime had not been revisionist Stalinists who decided to undemocratically dissolve itself to allow its bureaucracy to profit off of privatization. The Ukraine War is the result of capitalist imperialism of NATO / the West seeking to assimilate Russia and then China into its territory and control to protect itself against collapse.
@rbe_expert @adiz @don So NATO started the war... Diesn't strike me as something a sane person would say....
@extrn@qoto.org Gee, I don't know, it's not like there was a CIA sponsored coup that toppled the pro-Russian government in 2014 and installed a radically pro-Western regime which purged the officer corps, immediately began antagonisms on the Eastern borders, and destroyed decades of Ukrainian-Russian cooperation or anything. @rbe_expert@mastodon.social @don@liberdon.com
@adiz @don @rbe_expert dou you have any evidence? Because of experience I can tell you it is far more likely the educated Ukrainians living in big cities envisioned themselves as part of Europe with freedom to go wherever they like, work whatever they want and live their lives as they please, than deciding to join an authoritarian pigsty.
@rbe_expert @adiz @don who are "they"? And solution to what? And do yoj have any evidence? Because I can tell you - nobody needs to foment anything with me - the moment the orcs try to take my freedom they'll die
@rbe_expert @adiz @don these are people that do not want to have their lifes stollen by a dictatorship. I tell you - no sane person who lived in eastern Europe will ever want to join ruZZian sphere of influence.
@rbe_expert @adiz @don old regime was also fond of snipers killing protesters as far as I remember. I also remember poisoning politicians... And if you want to see what Ukraine would have been now, look no further than Belarus. I don't know why you are so drawn to dictators. Why don't you go to live there? It is easy recommending "workers" do it, why don't you give an example? You are too comfortable enjoying the freedom of the west, while talking shit about it... I believe Popper concluded you should not be given that opportunity... So just go ti ruZZia or Noth Korea to educate tha "workers" 🤡🤡🤡
@rbe_expert @adiz @don dead bodies
@extrn@qoto.org Evidence of dead bodies? @rbe_expert@mastodon.social @don@liberdon.com
@adiz @don @rbe_expert so you lost the ability to google?
@rbe_expert @adiz @don wasn't this during the Yanukovich betrayal that forced the riots?
@rbe_expert @adiz @don because the traitor broke the negotiations with EU and moved swiftly to ruZZia... why didn't he wait for elections? You are too appologetic of dictators. Are you sure you are marxist? You look like a putler shill
@extrn@qoto.org Ukraine was already geopolitically aligned with Russia. So, if you brand someone a "traitor" and muddy the waters with prerogatives then it's okay to throw a violent coup and overthrow a stable government (assuming it's backed by and beneficial to Western interests)? Funny how these "rules" work! 🥴 @rbe_expert@mastodon.social @don@liberdon.com
@adiz @don @rbe_expert Bullshit. Ukraine was in negotiations for integration with EU. That's what the people expected and I'd be shocked to learn putler didn't know.
@extrn@qoto.org You are just going to make up whatever "rules" or justifications or excuses you need to keep your viewpoint on the "win". You've moved goalposts across this playing field so many times the grass has muddied. You really have zero foundation. Discussing things with you is like "pulling teeth", or akin to negotiating with a toddler. @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social
@adiz @don @rbe_expert again bullshit. The negotiations with EU were actually complete. Just a few days before sighing Yanukovich turned to putler. How that sounds to you? ... speaking of toddlers... "the capitalist media" excuse is so deeply integrated in your mind that you refuse to see even basic facts. Putler tried to grab Ukraine. He failed, so he startrd a war. Grow up!
@extrn@qoto.org I'm not going to discuss anything further. You refuse to accept any level playing field for conversation. You won't make any concessions. You outright refused to even consider any equivalency or equality in geopolitical parallels. You won't accept anything that grains against the blinders you've installed on yourself. There is no point in conversing with a fanatic. @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social
@adiz @don @rbe_expert At what point you were "discussing"? You resoned from the position of the invisible purple unicorn.... Putler is a dictator and terrorist. You don't agree? Fine - you can d go to Muhosransk to grow turnips in a comune 🤡 I am not going to accept the point of view of murderers and terrorists. I know too well the likes of you FROM EXPERIENCE in real life!
@rbe_expert @adiz @don because from the point of view of the individual ("worker") it matters very much on which side of the border they'll happen to end. I'm not going to accept any concessions to terrorists and murderers. For you, it seems, the individual happiness has no meaning and these struggles are just a meaningless distraction from the grand fight against capitalism... It all very conveniently coincides with positions of dictators and terrorists: "it all does not matter, as long as there is capitalist oppression"... It is a stupid, fanatical point. Not all evils are equal... some are more equal (if you allow me the reference).
@extrn @adiz @don You seem unaware of how many people die every year under so-called "enlightened", "peaceful", "relaxed" Western capitalism. Let me help you understand the brutality:
https://youtu.be/ClLKm8Q8Pns
@rbe_expert @extrn @adiz Stalin was annihilating more people per week, than capitalists all over the history
@rbe_expert @don @adiz You are like a parrot repeating propaganda but you don't have a standing - you argue from the position of the invisible purple unicorn. Show me a marxist state, so I can show you the camps, the murderous militia, the ideologically loaded decisions that lead to disasters.... It has been done many times with awful consequences. How many milions did Mao kill (with hunger!!) because of his stupid policies? And what is your counter? "capitalists don't give free money so people are dying"?
@rbe_expert @don @adiz It doesn't matter what I allow or not. Existence is not subjective. There are deep problems with marxism and it goes contrary to human nature.
@rbe_expert @don @adiz as I said, complex systems can only evolve. They don't come by via catastrophic changes. Capitalism is a much safer bet than some bloody marxist coup that will leave the society in ruins. Just look at ruZZia...
@extrn @don @adiz You are arguing from the position of the aristocrat 100 years before the first instance of a modern democracy, who demands "Show me an example of a democracy that has ever worked. You can't! They've all come under the rule of tyrants! We must continue to be ruled by philosopher-kings, for the good of all!"