@Hikus AS much as i hate trump and do find him very obnoxious to hear him talk. The truth is So far in his presidency he hasn't come close to doing anything quite as immoral as what Obama did by murdering US citizens without due process or a trial.

So I may not like trump, but if i am being honest with myself and objective, Obama wasnt any better.

Then again Bush also approved torture. So even among republicans he isnt quite so bad in terms of "the worst" he has done.

@freemo @Hikus In as much as both Trump and Obama are both politicians worthy of contempt, saying that Trump isn't as immoral as Obama strikes us as a simplistic view. and we believe with a great deal of certainty that Obama was measurably better than Trump is. Maybe not better, but not as bad.

Trump is actively stoking the fires of nationalist terror, and operating concentration camps where children are separated from their parents, and subjected to abhorrent conditions. The whereabouts of hundreds of these children are unknown, while at once it comes into public knowledge that people in our government have close ties to people like Epstein, who engage in sex trafficking.

Trump's actions and racist populism have led to the deaths of hundreds of people in our country, and the dire mistreatment of thousands more.

Obama and Trump may both be loaves of soggy bread, but at least in Obama's case, it was just water, while Trump is a loaf of bread soaked in piss.

@StreetsOfSpokane

I agree it is overly simplistic

I never actually claimed, as you suggest that Obama was overall less moral than trump.

What I did say is that if we measure the worst thing both of these people did Obama's act is morally worse than than the worst that trump has done.

This is not the same as saying Trump is morally superior. Trump is a constant stream of inappropriate behavior. These have negative actions and while each of them doesnt live up to Obama's worst, cummulatively we might be able to argue that Trump's immorality surpassed that of Obamas. It is a hard argument to make but I agree from certain perspectives that could be true.

The issue, however, remains. When we look at the worst from Trump and the worst from Obama, Trumps worst moment wasn't as bad as Obamas.

There are also a few things to consider. As with everything in america media, whether it was the absurdity of Obama's citizenship, or the holding centers for immigrants, everything is greatly exaggerated and lied about.

I totally understand why it would feel wrong to detain children for the criminal acts of their parents. I even understand why we may want to change the laws to ensure those acts arent even considered illegal. But despite this most of the claims to horrible living conditions and the such are gross over exaggerations that arent really true on the whole.

So for the same reason i dont hold the non-sense thrown at Obama against him or take it literally I also try to see the attacks on Trump through an objective lens. Yea he is still a dick, but its not nearly as bad as people keep over exaggerating it to be.

Americans just have a tendency to exaggerate and lie, most of all in politics.

@Hikus

@freemo @Hikus You're right. In rereading your post, we find that we misrepresented your words. Our apologies.

@StreetsOfSpokane

No worries. It was admittedly an easy mistake to make. Just a bit of missed nuance.

Overall your intention was to engage respectfully, you were good! Much appreciated the maturity.

@Hikus

@freemo We still disagree with the assertion that Trump's worst isn't as bad as Obama's worst. Even if the actions of the current administration may be exaggerated, he's still responsible for stoking the fires of nationalism. His actions have directly caused the United States to be a less safe place.

As we are the kind of people that would be targeted by the kind of nationalism that Trump encourages, this is an important matter for us.

@StreetsOfSpokane

Alright, well lets consider that.

What one thing has he said or done of all the things he has said or done (A quote, something he signed, an announcement he made, whatever), that you feel is worse than murdering a US citizen without trial or due process?

You mentioned "stoking the fires of nationalism". But that isnt a single act. Which action did .he take to stoke those fires that you feel is an example of some action worse than murder?

@freemo If you're saying it's in one single action, no it wouldn't be. It's in a pattern of behavior that can be together considered as a concerted effort.

@StreetsOfSpokane Well that was my point. If we compare the worst of all the things each has done, Obama has done worse.

However if we compare cumulatively everything each president has done and weight it that way instead... well then it becomes a far more nuanced argument but I wouldnt be driven to disagree with you if you were to assert that Obama was marginally more moral than trump by that measure.

Regardless no matter how we stack the scales of morality here we are still arguing the morality of a murderer vs the morality of exhibiting national pride, or of being misogynistic, or whichever evil quality of trump you wish to add to the list.

@freemo we actually agree with you by this measure, however we'd also put forward the argument that Trump has not committed any singular action worse than Obama, simply for the fact that Trump is monumentally incompetent. Not quite a glowing endorsement, but there it is.

@StreetsOfSpokane to be fair thats kinda true. Obama was very charismatic, which basically meant he could get away with murder and people gave it way more slack than they probably should have.

Trump however every time he opens his mouth he sounds like he is having a stroke. So natually he fails at being evil because people are easily wooed by his words, if anything he has the opposite effect.

Also even if you dont look at his words he is still an asshole, so yea...

@StreetsOfSpokane Also to be clear I do not subscribe to the "vote for the lesser evil" mentality.

The fact is all three of our last presidents all commits atrocities. They all represent the worse sort of political evils we have seen in America.

We are basically arguing who is marginally less evil than the other. While I am more than happy to have that discussion lets step back for a minute and admit that we are well into the weeds and past the most important part in that statement.

We shouldnt be praising when a marginally less evil democrat comes along just because we see the alternative as a little more evil. In the end there should have been outrage from both political sidesint he street over bush, over obama, and over trump. But thats not what we see. We see the democrats being silent when their own leaders are murdering and in an uproar with a republican president is out there spouting vitrol. then the exact opposite happens on the republican side.

This pattern of behavior is what destroys the USA, its what perpetuates the downward spiral, and its far more the issue than anything trump or Obama or Bush or anyone has done individually.

@freemo We definitely agree on this point. Back to our original statement, politicians in general are worthy of contempt by virtue of contributing to the destructive system of government.

To relate to what you're saying, Obama shouldn't be celebrated for having stabbed us with a smaller knife than Trump is now stabbing us with. It's not a "good job, we barely felt that paring knife in our kidneys" but should rather be "we won't stand for being stabbed"

@StreetsOfSpokane I agree 100%