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How the Liberal Left created the Conservative Right and extremism in the fediverse:
As someone who cares greatly about equality, and recognizes minorities and underprivileged groups deal with some unique and difficult struggles I realize the title to this post would seem a bit inflammatory. But that is not my intention, my intention is to address a very real problem.
As anyone on the fediverse knows there are generally two major groups of instances. Those that wont ban anything of any kind, no rules it's the wild west (red instances). Then there are those that ban anyone who shares any opinion that disagrees with their politics, even if you criticise both the left and the right in the same breath you will likely quickly find the instance or yourself banned.
However the unfortunate consequence of this pattern of behavior is to promote ever increasing support for red instances and to drive grey instances (instances that take a middle ground) into being red instances. Should be obvious why...
You basically have a spectrum of behavior with red on one side and blue on the other. With everyone crammed into the 0.1% of either end of this spectrum that means most new instances will start off, most likely, somewhere in the grey area, even if their just marginally shy of being red or blue in its full extreme.
The experience for an admin of such an instance is to quickly be overwhelmed with people from blue instances blocking and banning for things like criticising a democratic politician or something rather minor. By the end of the first few months a blue/left leaning instance will quickly find itself on dozens of suspend or ban instances as a result and find they only have a voice among the 99% red instances and the 1% grey instances out there.
Since this means they naturally wont have a voice among blue instances, and most people are on social media because they want to be social, this means their only incentive is to appeal to red instances (since that's where all their boosts and likes come from). Along with building animosity for how blue instances treat them and with the acceptance of red instances you will find all the incentive for the instances to move to be an extremist red instance with extremist no-rule policies quickly develop.
As such we see exactly what we are seeing now on the fediverse, an ever increasing number of red instances very quickly overwhelming and overtaking the blue instances.
Of course this is made worse by the fact that those ont he blue instances can only see other blue instances. so they will be under the mistaken impression that the red instances don't exist and that the blue instances are thriving and growing and dominating over the red instances. This ignorance just ensures the red instances grow unchecked and unchallenged.
As someone who's personal policy is anti-extremism, and with this pattern being one that generates extremism it is very VERY concerning to me.
I posted this as a main post here, going to repeat it here because it is relevant:
https://qoto.org/@freemo/102720620029876902
I had an idea and a proposal for an anti-censorship cooperative among the free speech instances. It is just an idea, not sure if i support it yet. but would be curious to hear any feedback.. the idea goes something like this.
Any instance can get into the cooperative so long as they pledge to a few rules
1) personal suspensions and silencing is permitted.
2) Ban circumvention will not be allowed and enforced. If a person from one instance blocks someone and makes it clear they do not wish to be contacted, and a user creates another account to circumvent this personal block then that user will be banned.
3) no instance is allowed to suspend any other instance within the cooperative.
4) any server that suspends/blocks any instance inside the cooperative must be blocked/suspended by all other members of the cooperative in response.
5) any instance not following these rules will be kicked out of the cooperative.
The purpose here would be to ensure that any instance which has a policy of frivolously blocking other instances without due process or cause will be punished by loosing their voice throughout the larger federated community.
Noagendasocial.com has been saying this for years but we got banned and labeled pro Trump. No a lot of noagendasocial.com probably is pro Trump... Go figure.
@Meachamus_Prime Yup, sounds about right. Afterall if blue instances ban you it ensures your new users come more from the red than the blue.
@mk The worst part is they are such over the top extreme about it that even if you simply dont block a server that is blocked that is cause enough to block you.
Apparently now if your grandmother's, cousin's best friend's dog is a nazi that makes you a nazi too.
@mk Yup makes you exactly equivalent to Hitler lol
@Alonealastalovedalongthe Well the best place to get those numbers (the place I get them from) is looking at the user statistics and growth rate across the red instances.
When i look across the user growth rate charts for various red instances I notice a very marked increase in users. You also notice during periods of campaign to block red instances the user count rate on those increases in the time that follows.
I agree that is hardly scientific, but there are no scientific papers obviously to argue either side on this. As such its the best I have to draw my conclusions from.
If these are things that you observe then I encourage you to collect the statistics and indicators you see into a form that can show others the pattern you see.
The narrative that the left is full of reactionary people that won't listen to different opinions is a classic case of people that have that exact problem trying to relabel the left with it to avoid criticism of themselves.
I'm not saying this is why you are saying these things but it is a misleading narrative.
@Alonealastalovedalongthe I never said it was true of the left overall. Only of blue instances in the fediverse. I'd also go so far as to say its true of most of te left from america (but america is known for its extremism).
I live in the Netherlands, I'm dutch, the left here do NOT appear to be the sort of extremists we see here from blue instances in the fediverse.
I'd discourage you from generalizing what I say to the left outside of the areas I specifically addressed. I know **many** left leaning people who are very rational. They just tend to avoid blue instances on the fediverse is all.
@Alonealastalovedalongthe As for making a case, I agree, it might be useful. But I have limited time. I am a Research scientist with more than enough papers in my quota already.
Moreover I would suspect it will fall on deaf ears. The blue instances guilty of the behavior arent likely to be receptive to such evidence. In fact they would likely twist it into evidence of me being right leaning (which i am not) and even go so far as to use it against me as is their MO.
@Alonealastalovedalongthe Here is an example of such extremism from blue instances (since you said you were unaware of it happening). In this case a blue instance is calling for a ban on any instance which has anyone from that instance even following someone from another instance. Nothing to do with opinions or even politics. Just being able to hear what someone else says is enough to warrant a ban these days.
So apparently if some user from 2 years ago signed up and followed someone from that domain, then stopped using that account, it means our entire domain should be blocked...
It is shocking to me that with this pattern being as pervasive as it is that you dont see it.
@freemo @Alonealastalovedalongthe This is a stupid person, and I'm happy to see idiots self-segregate.
Who the person calling for the ban? Yea the issue is that it is common behavior these days in the fediverse.
@freemo @Alonealastalovedalongthe Yes, that is a stupid person. The stupid people walling themselves off is best for everyone, I think.
"As anyone on the fediverse knows there are generally two major groups of instances. Those that wont ban anything of any kind, no rules it's the wild west (red instances). Then there are those that ban anyone who shares any opinion that disagrees with their politics, even if you criticise both the left and the right in the same breath you will likely quickly find the instance or yourself banned."
I am part of the subset of anyone and I have not had this experience whatsoever.
@Alonealastalovedalongthe Are you an instance admin. It happens at the instance level not the personal level. So I really wouldn't expect you to personally experience it unless you are an instance admin.
@freemo
This literally happened to me and my single user instance.
There I was, enjoying silly pointless content, when I saw a toot about censorship, boosted by someone I follow. I replied, and said maybe the problem is a bit nuanced.
Little did I know, that person was a particularly popular instance admin. Not even his instance was particularly popular, just the admin (though I suspect he alters his numbers)
But because I didn't 1000% praise his opinion... Bippity, Bippity, NAZI!
@r000t Sad and so typical.
@freemo
Dude then proceeded to click every link on my profile until he found any evidence that I had white skin.
Which, for some reason, makes me a white supremacist. I had no idea.
@freemo
(there was supposed to be a boppity after that first bippity Btw. Hope that doesn't make me an ultra nazi)
It's a cool idea to overcome a serious issue of eco chambers. Although There must be someone on top controlling things and mature enough to take right decisions.
@inditoot I was thinking of using technology rather than humans to do that. A plugin which each site int eh federation runs that ensures the rules i mentioned are enforced and if they arent all members of the federation would know it.
That would be much better ๐ count me in.
@inditoot Yea I dont trust humans do be in control of this :)
Yeah, We can be biased sometimes
Opal's been collecting a list of instances that are completely transparent about their blocklists and policies, I like this effort: https://wowana.me/fediverse.xht
@p The issue that needs addressing is that a policy where others block you as punishment for not blocking others will proliferate. If you silence other instance you cant hear them but they can hear you. so if your interest is having a voice there is no downside to silencing other instances but incentive to do so (as to prevent yourself from being blocked).
The end result of this is that instances that otherwise might not care will get ont he block train just so they themselves dont get blocked.
So unless I dont feel that simply being transparent will resolve the issue. We need to use the same tactic in return.
@darwi_odrade I am dutch, not american. I agree it is an american view and in large mostly applies to americans, europeaners rarely fit these descriptions.
@darwi_odrade Also im actually very well read on anarcho-syndicalist it is a well known theory. So no worries there. When i talk about left and right i do mean neo-liberals and not general liberalism.
@darwi_odrade The red blue split is actually fediverse lingo, it originates from japanese servers not USA ones. Red servers are ones that have porn, in the form of animations/drawings of underage kids, Blue servers are servers that block red servers for doing so.
This language in the fediverse evolved along lines of red and blue where red refers to non-moderated instances and blue refers to heavily moderated instances.
The lingo has never had anything to do with politics.
@darwi_odrade I am not saying i support the practice. I am just giving you the etymology as to how the two phrases came to be.
I read a few articles by native japanese on the issue. apparently the vast majority of japanese (according to these articles at least) do not see cartoons of underage children in sexualized or pornographic settings as being equivalent to child porn or even remotely related to it.
As a cultural thing they see it as not even worthy of being an issue in general (it is perfectly legal there and accepted publicly generally).
This is in contrast to the fact that actual child porn of actual people is considered completely unacceptable, illegal, and would get you shunned by society.
Again not saying i agree with the cultural perspective, but it appears to a japanese person they view this issue very differently than other cultures might.
@darwi_odrade The instances have red or blue in their domain name.. but the term has evolved past anything to do with porn.
There are many instances who consider themselves red instances who have explicit policies to block child porn now. So largely it has turned into its own term.
For example null.red as far as i can tell is a largely pro-LGBT server. but because they have limited moderation they likely picked the red in their domain name.
I would imagine they would, however, block child porn as they are somewhat moderated
@darwi_odrade I wouldnt presume to speak for them. But we arent talking about something exclusive to men. Both small boys and small girls are depicted and both men and women in japan seem to be interested in it (as im sure both groups are oppsosed to it)...
But I am no expert on it, so I'd be hesitant to push a perspective more so than that. I am mostly just relaying what I have read on the issue. It seems largely both men and women in japan dont see it as an issue. Again assuming the articles I read can be trusted.
@darwi_odrade While im sure many women arent ok with it, im not sure that can apply to all. As i said some women are very into it it seems (based on the articles i was reading)
I mean i could undertand if you think they are just saying its ok to get along. But then why do some women there buy the cartoons, or collect them? Their pattern of behavior seems to suggest many women dont just tolerate it but seek it out. Just as many men do.
As for porn in general. I dunno, I can think of three ex's who would always insist on taking me to the strip club. I dont do strip clubs myself, never had much of an interest, but they were ALL about it. They found it fun. These are women who considered themselves feminists too.
I'm not sure all women really feel the same as you is all. I'm not saying your wrong or that your feelings are invalid. Just saying I know plenty of women who behave contrary to what you suggest.
@darwi_odrade fair, I dont know enough of the cuture to agree or disagree
@darwi_odrade Oh and yes i do agree in the wider world the conservative right is as much to blame for extremism as the left. they do feed off each other.
The thing is as someone who is neither extreme, in the fediverse, I tend to get a lot more hate day to day from the left than the right, simply for being moderate.
True when i was in america too.
@freemo stop using the word fediverse, trying so hard to sound smart and "with it", using obscure web phrases.
@VeganRenaissance Huh? What word do you think is a better choice?
I dont think "fediverse" makes anyone sound smart. Its just the word that describes what it is. As far as I know there are no other alternative words.
@freemo it's self ghettoisation, where as well as pushing others to the red, they also undermine their own voice and influence by only speaking to those they already agree with.
Instead of the fediverse being a rich landscape of varied ideology and discussion, it's become a number of isolated favelas where killfile death squads roam and even those who honestly and in their best hearts try to do good fear getting caught out and immediately and without consideration for situation.
Pic attached is from the left, but could be from any of these closed groups.
@kline Yup pretty much
@freemo
As someone with not enough mental capacity to deal with this, I'm just really glad you're our admin.
@Rovine Awww thanks, that really means a lot to me :) I am more than happy to take the brunt of the abuse if i can help protect you all from it.
@igeljaeger I mostly agree but i also sympathize with how they got that way. Many of these instances are pro-trans communities. They have been treated quite brutally by many and have become hurt, defensive, and lash out. While their behaviors arent right I can still have some sympathy for how it came to be.
@igeljaeger Some people can go to war and come back a sane person, most do not. Just because some people have exceptional strength of character is no reason for me to withdraw my earlier compassion for those who dont.
I'm not saying it is right, or even justified. Only that I have compassion for what they went through. I feel sorry for them more than anything that trauma has gotten the best of them.
Shortly after posting this I had this pop up in my feed on an unrelated thread. Fitting!