@shebang @freemo I thought he meant when compared with the black population. I think most people do...

But still yeah that doesn't make it a bigger problem than when it happens to white people...and if white people are getting killed more often by police, maybe it's more of a systemic issue than a racial issue.

But eh...nobody wants to talk about that...

@realcaseyrollins @shebang @freemo Of course not. Only a few people are addressing this. Its also funny that the same people wanted to give the police more power to enforce the lockdown two months ago are now either going wild on the streets or supporting the riots.

@maxmustermann @shebang @freemo LOL who needs principles?

@realcaseyrollins @shebang @freemo Appenrtly not leftists and corrupt politicians.

@maxmustermann @shebang @freemo Come on man we know all sides are no strangers to shallow or zero principles...

I know I tend to talk like a moderate sometimes lol but it's true!

@realcaseyrollins @shebang @freemo That is true for the establishment and to some extend to the Trump administration (1980s democrat by the way :^) ) .

@realcaseyrollins @freemo @shebang what about in relation to criminals by race?

@Locksmith @shebang @freemo

Actually, whites are arrested far more often than whites (whites make up for 69% of arrests in comparison to blacks who make up for 27.4%). However, black admittedly are fatally shot slightly more often in proportion to the blacks arrested, at 0.007% of blacks in comparison to 0.006% of whites.

Stats used:
https://www.ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/crime/ucr.asp?table_in=2

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

@realcaseyrollins @Locksmith @shebang @freemo is that a rounding error or no?

@milo @Locksmith @freemo @shebang It's not really an error, I punched the numbers in https://percentagecalculator.net/

@realcaseyrollins @Locksmith @freemo @shebang

If that's the case, they're both extraordinarily a small amount as a cause of death in the US.

@realcaseyrollins @Locksmith @freemo @shebang
Though to put it in perspective, taking the last estimate from the population clock from the US Census that would tally up to:

19,785 Whites killed by gunshot
and
23,082 Blacks killed by gunshot

@Locksmith @freemo @realcaseyrollins @shebang

To us that's not an 'insignificant' amount, but compared on the national population it is.

@milo @Locksmith @freemo @shebang This is indeed true.

@shebang Both are correct statements, neither contradict the other. It is simply you are ignorant of some basic statistics.

Since blacks make up 12.6% of the population but unarmed blacks are killed by police 25% - 33% of the time then blacks are disproportionately targeted by 2x - 3x more than whites.

@freemo I'm not ignorant. Arrogant jackass.

I'm asking you to clarify your position with the numbers that you provided.

You are still cherry picking and limiting the context, none of your numbers make sense until you include black crime statistics vs white crime statistics. Police generally go where the crime is.

@shebang I beleive you misunderstand the word "ignorant" it simply means you didnt appear to know something.

You are correct the numbers dont make sense if you arent aware of the context , not being aware of information is called ignorance, thus my use of the term.

I am glad I was able to clarify it for you.

@freemo I know what the word "ignorant" means, Arrogant Jackass.

Anyway, its pretty obvious at this point -- thanks to your clarification -- that your post was just a virtue signal.

Yawn, anyway, I'm washing my hands of you. I was hoping for something of substance out of this but that's not your intention so never mind.

@shebang @freemo

> your post was just a virtue signal

Really? Virtue signal towards who?

Like I agree that his response was kinda arrogant but come on, he makes a good point that very few want to speak on.

@realcaseyrollins @freemo Nope.

He can make his point to you then, I'm not getting sucked into a conservation with someone who immediately starts with insults. My time is worth more then that. You two have fun.

@shebang @freemo Yeah...I guess I just have a tendency to be more forgiving and let insults go.

@shebang If you know what the word means then your clearly just starting drama over an otherwise respectful response. So yes, please wash your hands of this and move on.

@freemo @shebang
>"75% of unarmed victims killed by police are white"
>"unarmed blacks are killed by police 25% - 33% of the time"
Wouldn't math mean that the second statement can't be more than 25% if the first statement is true? And considering there are more ethnicity than just white/black, the numbers in that second statement should be even lower.
Unless of course you meant to say something completely different in that second statement.

@penny I would say the inverse. It is an attempt at adding tone where it does not currently exist.

@freemo You can try to phrase it however you like, but you are the tone deaf one here

@penny You are welcome to your opinion. To me it appears you are the one who is tone deaf. Oh well.

@penny Call it tone deaf all you want but tone aside, you cant solve a problem if you have tunnel vision on only one symptom of the larger problem.

@freemo you are exactly the one who has tunneled in: in a discourse of racial inequality you are demanding the attention of irrelevant deaths, despite the fact that our movement wants to disband the police and stop all those deaths anyway

@penny Again it is not a discussion of racial inequality wholly, that is one very important aspect of what is going on. But it can not be viewed with blinders on to the whole of the issues at play. If you do so you wont solve the problem.

No one is suggesting the racial issue should be ignored or down played. Only that solutions must see the whole of the problem and not just have tunney vision for one aspect of it.

@freemo What you've misread here is that it absolutely is

@penny and what you have misread is that it absolutely isnt.

Clearly we disagree. Just stating it over and over again wont get either of us anywhere.

@r000t true, sadly. At least in the USA.

@penny No one is saying you should talk about the issue your currently talking about, or talk about it any less.

Generally societies have very many talks about very many things all at the same time when we address issues. There is more than enough room to discuss all the relevant factors that are causing the problems we face. There is no need or benefit from silencing other related discussions.

You dont reach effective solutions by ignoring the nuance of a problem.

@freemo All true, but again, the people using their energy don't "need" to talk about this unrelated stuff, in fact it's strategically a bad idea because it just spares resources from a movement that's really running full throttle at the moment. Focus is what wins political movements.

@penny I never claimed anyone **needed** to do anything. Its a free country you dont even **need** to recognize a problem exists at all.

What I did say is by not talking about or addressing the big picture you arent going to properly solve the problem.

Having blinders to the full problem and focusing on one aspect of it is not how you win politicial movements. Thats exactly what americans have been doing for years and they keep making things worse not better. I see the exact opposite of that statement to be true, the radicalizm towards singular problems and polarization to one end of the spectrum on every single issue we try to discuss as a society is exactly why the USA is gettign worse year after year.

@freemo well, you also said that it's just as important, which is done deaf for the same reasons but slightly more offensive; because it also magnifies how "wrong" the people not talking about that are.

@penny I did not use the phrase "just as important" either.

@freemo Warning: just rambling, going 2 bed after

It's important to understand that to say something is "tone deaf" is to do a sort of a metasocial measure of your own response and perception of something in a given context; and then to make an analysis of how you believe other people will read it in the context you believe them to have

@penny Yes I think thats a good definition. Can you also, therefore, see why your own responses (particularly those earlier in the thread) also would be tone deaf to my own perceptions and the people who feel as I do?

There are a lot of people trying to say what I am saying.. many have no racist tendencies of any kind, and are often being called racist for even daring to include general police brutality in the issue (as it effects all races)..

The problem as I see it, many of the ALM people arent listening the the BLM side of things. Which is why it is important for me to highlight when i talk about this that blacks are absolutely suffering 2x - 3x more.. but at the same time the BLM side arent really listening to the ALM side who are claiming we have all been abused by cops and there is a sense of unity in that because we have a common enemy and that message is important to spread too...

Instead all I see is ALM hating BLM and BLM hating ALM and frankly their both tone deaf to the other and from my perspective at their core (when you remove the bad apples using those terms) they are both positive messages that should be side-by-side against a common problem.

@freemo oh please I'm sorry; I do get pointlessly abrasive and I am working on that but I never meant to accuse you of racism

@penny Oh dont worry I didnt mean to imply that **you** were accusing me of racism. Your fine, you are a bit harsh in your tone, but this is just an emotional and passionate issue for you. I think that abrasiveness may not always serve you well but in my case I am understanding of it, no worries.

I was really just speaking more to the general audience than you specifically. While I would say your interpretation of the other side was a bit tone deaf to their cries, you were not offensive, your good.

@freemo @penny I think I remember ALM was started by the extreme right initially as a subtle way of making BLM invalid.

I think that is a legitimate reason to not support ALM, the meaning behind ALM isn't just "All Lives Matter" but the real message to a lot of people is "BLM is racist for not including non-blacks."

@freemo @penny So in many ways ALM is a movement against BLM.

@SuperDicq @freemo definitely using ALM is a racist calling card both by default and majority and using it is unwise

@penny

I personally use "Every Life Matters" as my phrasology. but in the example I gave i was talking about the ALM people who generally are ignorant and insensitive to BLM, so it was fitting, even if there may be some positive aspect to their message underneath the garbage.

@SuperDicq

@penny @SuperDicq @freemo what

@kino @penny @freemo I just gave context on the origin of ALM.

@kino @freemo @penny ALM is not racist, but because of the context it is.

@SuperDicq @freemo @penny origin is kind of irrelevant when we’re talking about an innocuous phrase people mostly use to genuinely assert equal worth and value to humans regardless of color, sex, or background.

@kino @SuperDicq @freemo my experience says that is by default and majority a racist calling card

@penny

To be fair your expiernces are likely biased by the circles you are in.

While I do agree there are examples where the phrase was tainted by bad actors I would not say the vast majority of people who use the phrase are racist.. some perhaps. Most just seem to want a more encompassing phrase that represents racial unity and solidarity among all races. That has largely been how it has been used when I see it used first-hand. But even my expiernces are likely biased too.

@SuperDicq @kino

@kino

I would add as a phrase its origins are quite old as well. People have been using that phrase for at least hundreds of years.

But it was co-opted by some bad actors so I have no objection to switching up the phrase if it prevents misunderstanding. "Every Life Matters" seems a better choice all around to me as it doesnt appear as a derrivative of BLM anyway, so less likely to be seen as oppositional to it.

@penny @SuperDicq

@freemo @penny @SuperDicq they’ll just decide that’s racist too

@kino

Perhaps, but by virtue of the fact that it is not derivative of BLM itself there is a stronger argument for it as a separate idea that is not defined in relation to BLM or as a counter point to it.

@penny @SuperDicq