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@bluGill Yea I would love to see someone who excites me come along... At this point im pretty much just ok with anyone but Biden or Trump.. that will be enough of a win for me.
@freemo i've voted third party for decades. Often a kook that was only slightly better than the mainstream kooks, but at least I didn't vote for whichever idiot won.
@bluGill lol yea i mean their only slightly less cookie at best :)
@freemo that would have to be a Republican then I suppose. I'm all for that party to find its way back to sanity so I can think about maybe voting for them again someday. But they have a long way to come back imho.
It's hard to imagine a Republican winning the 2024 primary who doesn't at least signal that they want to ban abortion and trans health care and increase preferential treatment of the Christian majority. I hope I'm wrong. Not to mention any critical thinking about the harms of capitalism (not that Biden is any better on that front though).
> that would have to be a Republican then I suppose.
Why would you think that? There are at least 4 choices for president in every election, and some states have quite a few more choices.
> I'm all for that party to find its way back to sanity so I can think about maybe voting for them again someday. But they have a long way to come back imho.
I agree about this but both in reference to the Democrats and Republicans.. both have long since devolved into insanity and of the many parties to choose from these two remain my bottom two choices.
> It's hard to imagine a Republican winning the 2024 primary who doesn't at least signal that they want to ban abortion and trans health care and increase preferential treatment of the Christian majority.
Yup, quite a few distasteful things from the republicans that make it quite hard to support them.
> Not to mention any critical thinking about the harms of capitalism
Capitalism harmful, if anything we've seen the opposite that communism is harmful and capitalism far preferable.. Aside from maybe north korea I cant think of a single major country that isnt a capitalism in the world today. Most of the communist countries have long since failed.
That said, the problem with america is we have monopolies (like amazon) that have taken over our markets, which means they arent free markets anymore... The problem with america isnt capitalism (free markets) its the lack of capitalism (monopolies making the market not free)
> Why would you think that? There are at least 4 choices for president in every election, and some states have quite a few more choices.
I know that me treating it like a two-party system contributes to that being true, but it's hard to believe that voting for any other party has any chance of actually selecting a winner without some big shake-up. Who knows though, maybe a Trump arrest could be just such a shake-up.
> if anything we’ve seen the opposite that communism is harmful and capitalism far preferable
I'm somewhat convinced of this, but I'm not ready to write off communism completely based on the few implementations so far. I guess I just hope that a system that includes massive exploitation isn't the very best that humanity can do. Maybe there's a better choice than both out there.
> Most of the communist countries have long since failed.
Often with some significant "help" from the US, I think. But it does seem like several have imploded mostly on their own.
> The problem with america isnt capitalism (free markets) its the lack of capitalism (monopolies making the market not free)
I'm pretty sure both are a problem. Capitalism because it incentivises greed and funnels power to those willing to exploit others. Monopolies because they lock up that power in very few hands.
Both can have upsides too - capitalism seems pretty good at producing innovation and increasing quality of life, at least for many people. I won't defend monopolies but I can imagine potential for making big moves that wouldn't otherwise be possible.
> I know that me treating it like a two-party system contributes to that being true, but it’s hard to believe that voting for any other party has any chance of actually selecting a winner without some big shake-up. Who knows though, maybe a Trump arrest could be just such a shake-up.
minor parties with previously <2% support in past elections have managed to win 51% of the vote in an election and become a major party a total of 8 times in USA history... so while its true it doesnt happen often, it certainly is possible.
Regardless even though its a long-shot, im going to vote for the best candidate, not some evil candidate just cause a bunch of people think the evil candidate will win, thats still no reason to vote for him.
> I’m somewhat convinced of this, but I’m not ready to write off communism completely based on the few implementations so far. I guess I just hope that a system that includes massive exploitation isn’t the very best that humanity can do. Maybe there’s a better choice than both out there.
Exploitation of humans **must** happen under Communism. You cant steal everyones property and give it away and not have exploirtation of humans, thats your starting point because taking what I built/own/earned with my own two hands is exploitation.
In capitalism exploitation is optional. So at least you have a sane baseline on which to build that isnt exploitive.
We agree we need to address exploitation regardless though.
> Often with some significant “help” from the US, I think. But it does seem like several have imploded mostly on their own.
The USA certainly wasnt friendly towards them.. considering the whole mass murder thing that goes along with communism though I cant blame them.
But in most cases it was the people of communist countries that overwhelmingly demanded communism end.. it never needed much help from the USA as is seen from its own people's response.
> I’m pretty sure both are a problem. Capitalism because it incentivises greed and funnels power to those willing to exploit others. Monopolies because they lock up that power in very few hands.
Can't say I agree. Incentive's greed is a cop-out IMO. Greed is FAR more incentivized in a communistic society where you are poor and starving by default. Therefor you are **hugely** incentivized to hoard things illegally and in secret, because if you arent greedy, you die.
In a capitalism your free to generate wealth, so you dont need to resort to illegal tactics like stealing and cheating anymore, you can just do good honest work creating something of value that didnt exist before.. you can even become a billionair without hurting anyone since wealth is free to be created and it is incentivized to add new wealth to the world (rather than just hoard resources).
@freemo Unfortunately, being found guilty, even imprisoned, does not in fact bar him from office.
The only hope of that lies in the 14th Amendment, section 3:
"No person shall... hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, ... who, having previously taken an oath, ... as an officer of the United States, ... to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same"
I understand there are legal moves on to disqualify him on exactly these grounds, but it'll take a while and will presumably end up with the less-than-impartial Supreme Court.
@VoxDei Yes this is true, being found guilty alone wont bar him from running... but one would hope it would effectively prevent him... i guess we will see
@freemo Doesn't look like it, sadly. Most of the Republican base are too far gone in the Fox News reality where black is white and none of this is happening.
Rupert Murdoch has an awful lot to answer for, but at this point I doubt he could stop it if he wanted to. Even if Fox turned round and started telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, three quarters of Trump's base would just assume they'd been nobbled by the Deep State and double down. Deprogramming people once they've bought into a conspiracy is a bitch.
@VoxDei You very well could be right sadly.
@freemo The only real way to clinch his victory is for him to be convicted or jailed though
@realcaseyrollins Ha! that might actually be true...
@freemo I'm just hoping that someone worth voting for will show up to run. I live in Iowa, so my vote in the caucus counts more than most, but so far nobody is of any interest. Just the same old drill more oil and everything else is the fault of those illegal immigrants. Oh, and of course everyone has a nice family picture of some sort (generally outdoors).