The “guns don't kill people” crowd sure seem to think books can make you gay.
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No we dont....
I, like the vast majority of the "guns dont kill people crowd" are very very much pro free speech and against banning of books.
Im sure there are some pro gun people who arent... but to claim they represent the pro-gun rights community is not remotely accurate to reality.
@ErikUden @freemo @Elleaster Except that spoons have a legitimate use and taking them away would have a negative impact on ppls quality of life.
Right, cause all those good people whose lives were saved because they had a gun and were able to protect themselves... thats not a "legitimate use" and wouldnt have had a negative impact if it was taken away.... Quite obviously your statement is disproven by example, even one example disproves it.
@freemo @BenAveling @ErikUden @Elleaster
The one thing that requires a gun to legally protect oneself
Is another gun.
But do keep the arms industry happy.
Nope, anytime the agvressor is stronger. A woman vs a man will almost never be fair or equal well the man is trying to kill the woman. The gun is an equalizer.
Policies that restrict gun use are highly sexist all the time.
@freemo @BenAveling @ErikUden @Elleaster in that case you should not sell but issue guns, to women only.
Good Idea, We should run a nationwide, tax paid service, that provides free high quality guns to women... That sounds like a good idea, thanks for proposing it!
@freemo @BenAveling @ErikUden @Elleaster
You're welcome. Meanwhile don't forget to retract any and all fire arms from men in the USA
Why would we have to do that... we agreed women having guns caused equality, and with them getting free guns there would be no need. If you took guns away from men you'd create inequality again, just this time favoring the women... that seems counter to your intention of creating equality.
@freemo @BenAveling @ErikUden @Elleaster
Didn't you just say that the gun is an equaliser for the woman against the fysically overpowering but otherwise unarmed man? How then is adding a gun to the male agressor providing the woman equality? Or should she just be holding the world at gunpoint from the moment she opens her front door?
> Didn't you just say that the gun is an equaliser for the woman against the fysically overpowering but otherwise unarmed man? How then is adding a gun to the male agressor providing the woman equality? Or should she just be holding the world at gunpoint from the moment she opens her front door?
Sorta. A gun int he hand of a woman equalizers her against a man with a gun in his hand... A woman with a gun against a man without a gun would put the woman at an advantage, but if its a physically stronger man assaulting the woman, that advantage is morally ok, of course, as we want the one defending themselves be the stronger...
But in general since either sex is capable of trying to kill either, on a societal level we would want them to have equal footing,a nd thus both have guns.
> How then is adding a gun to the male agressor providing the woman equality?
You didnt say "we shoudl ban all agressors from having guns" .. you said all men. Men are not always the agressor, ergo this is where your logic breaks down.
> How then is adding a gun to the male agressor providing the woman equality?
adding a gun to the male agressor might make them equal, but that is undesirable... providing gun to men, in general (regardless of if they are an agressor or not) is different that taking it away just from people who have been agressive.
> Or should she just be holding the world at gunpoint from the moment she opens her front door?
She should have one in her purse in case she gets raped.. If the rapist doesnt have a gun that gives her an advantage, good, if he does they are equal, still better... Since only some men are rapists this would be a failure of logic to say we should disarm men, though if you want to disarm people who have demonstrated violence in the past, while that is a complciated thing to do right, that is a fine goal.. its why criminals cant own.
@freemo @BenAveling @ErikUden @Elleaster
"You didnt say “we shoudl ban all agressors from having guns” .. you said all men."
Yes, I said "all men". Like you point out, it's hard to decide who will and who will not become violent. As for logics, I wish I could turn around your rhetoric: Not just any man is a potential agressor. I wish I could state in return that not just any woman is a potential victim.
She is.
@freemo @BenAveling @ErikUden @Elleaster
"She should have one in her purse in case she gets raped.."
Should you ever decide to study the stat's on rape, you would learn that it mostly takes place inside the victims home, by a person known to her, and often in situations where one would not carry a purse.
In fact, there is no way an external defensive device could ever "equalize" the difference in body mass, fysical reach or musclepower.
Sorry I'm back now, but sucked into a nearly 3 hour long business call.
> You didnt say “we shoudl ban all agressors from having guns” .. you said all men."
I didnt say either of these. At no point did I recommend we ban all men or all aggressors... I did point out when **you** suggested we ban all men from having guns that would be a bad idea, but if you could (which you cant) just exclusively ban all aggressors it might make sense.
> As for logics, I wish I could turn around your rhetoric: Not just any man is a potential agressor. I wish I could state in return that not just any woman is a potential victim.
Never said that every woman is a potential victim either... In fact, the ones with guns arent, so that is a counter point to it.
The point is, like it or hate it, statistically speaking if we are talking biological sex at birth, and not talking about trans or other people who change their gender/sex later... then of that studies show that something like 99% (or close to it) of men are physically stronger than women.
Attached is just one of many examples that show this, in this case grip strength.. You can see the overlap between men and women is very small.
So the point is "almost all men are capable of physically overpowering almost all women".. this is a factually correct statement. The fact that you have edge cases and outliers doesnt really change much about this.
> Should you ever decide to study the stat's on rape, you would learn that it mostly takes place inside the victims home, by a person known to her, and often in situations where one would not carry a purse.
I was quite aware of it when I said what I said... it also changes nothing about the reasoning... For starters even if the gun isnt in her purse that doesnt mean she wont have access to it in the home... but more importantly, even if it only protects her out of the home, so what? The point is there are many scenarios where it protects her, thus it is sexist to deny her the right to protect herself and have equal access to security.
> In fact, there is no way an external defensive device could ever "equalize" the difference in body mass, fysical reach or musclepower.
Thats quite naive.. If a man is 10 feet away then no matter what his body mass is, I can shoot him dead before he can get close enough to touch me.. Very clearly equalizing the body mass. No matter how strong you are it wont give you an advantage if your dead before you close the distance as you charge someone.
@freemo @BenAveling @ErikUden @Elleaster
"thus it is sexist to deny her the right to protect herself and have equal access to security."
Of course she does. This is not synonimous for owning or using a gun though. Because the right you claim she has is in fact the right to safety and to bodily integrity. Needing to protect oneself is a requirement, not a right, and certainly not a privilege to access a gun.
@freemo @BenAveling @ErikUden @Elleaster
Therefore the right to bodily integrety is better protected by educating men and women on the topic while they're young.
And at this point I can already imagine your return on something like words will not ever overpower bullets. But really that is just my final point: If guns over words define our rights, than we have no rights. Because guns are and will always be privilege.
> Therefore the right to bodily integrety is better protected by educating men and women on the topic while they're young.
No one is saying we shouldnt do that, or other ways to improve things... So you do this now rape coes from 15% of women down to 10% of women, or 5% or even 1%... guess what that 1% still need guns if they are to exercise their right to being able to protect themselves from bodily harm. Until you eliminate **all** cases then you cant say they have the right to protect themselves from bodily harm unless they have a right to a gun.
> And at this point I can already imagine your return on something like words will not ever overpower bullets.
No that would be a very idiotic response for me or anyone to have. Words have monumental effects, especially when we are talkign about words conveying life lessons at early age... please dont assume.
> But really that is just my final point: If guns over words define our rights, than we have no rights. Because guns are and will always be privilege.
You are constructing your argument against things you imagined I might say, not what I actually said... so this argument is invalid as it is not the claim or releated to any claim I'd make.
> Because guns are and will always be privilege.
Also this seems like a very invalid argument...I argued guns should be issued for free to everyone, paid for by taxes.. That doesnt sound like privilage to me, that sounds like equal access and eliminated financial barriers.
@freemo @BenAveling @ErikUden @Elleaster
My bad, I misinterpreted your first response as being sarcastic, as I was being sarcastic.
My final statement however bases on the reality that guns are NOT issued in accordance to feminin, or any other kind of emancipation. Guns require sale.
And how would that idea work out? Should we consider emancipating minors too? Should we emancipate minorities? Invalides? Where would we draw the line as to who gets to equalize their right to self defence?
Half sarcastic/joke indeed, you weren't wrong... but my point is this.. if your going to argue its privilage then i will argue sincerely to make it free for everyone if that is true... So **if** it truely is privilage, then easily solved, so its a moot point anyway.
> My final statement however bases on the reality that guns are NOT issued in accordance to feminin, or any other kind of emancipation. Guns require sale.
The problem is you said guns are **always** privilage.. in reality what you mean is they are only privilage when they are for sale, and when the poor arent given help to aquire them...
So if you want to argue guns are privilege, then fine, give them for free, either privilege isnt a problem at all (in which case you can keep selling them) or it is (in which case taxes can just give it to the poor)... either way the argument that guns are always privilege, as if you cant produce equal access to guns is untrue.
> And how would that idea work out? Should we consider emancipating minors too? Should we emancipate minorities? Invalides? Where would we draw the line as to who gets to equalize their right to self defence?
Everyone should have access to guns, and if you want to address the class issue, then everyone who cant afford them should get one. If minors should get one or not is up to the parents, and ultimately the liability on them... depend on the child.
A man with a gun and a woman with a gun are on fairly equal footing, far more so than any other configuration... when everyone has guns physical strength is a much smaller factor and thus an equalizing factor.. ther eis no need to select who gets it and who doesnt.
