While some hail Hamas for apparently being the most merciful and humanitarian hostage-taker in the world, let that sink in: you've got adult men and women who take 4 years old kids as hostages...
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There is no excuse for this and no one should be praising hamas.
Just as there was no excuse when the IDF used children of a similar age as human shields and got called to international court on war crimes for it (And refused to show)..
In the end anyone taking **either** side as the good guy is morally corrupt. The hammas are evil, the IDF is evil, full stop.
Absolutely, as the invaders and occupiers the Israel side is significantly worse morally.
At this point its not relevant that the Israelis are the worse... they both commit war crimes and terrorism... Debating what murderer and torturer is the nicer one has little interest to me.
But if you insist then yea, the one who started the fight,a nd did so with a mass genocide is very clearly the worse of the two, regardless of what the other side did after being occupied.
If i break into someones house and chain the whole family up in the bathroom and punch them in the face every day, and they respond by kicking me in the balls when they get the chance, I'm still the worse one, I cant be praised for "taking the high oad and not kicking them in the balls" when im the one who came in, took over their home, and locked them into a small bathroom. It doesnt make kicking me in the balls right, but it does clearly make me the wrong one as the theif and initial abuser.
You seem to have a lot of good ideas about the war. So letโs assume youโre Israel, itโs 7 October, you woke up to the barrage of rockets from Gaza and Hamas fighters slaughtering Israeli civilians. Whatโs you plan?
I would issue a public apology for invading a country that wasnt mine and occupying it for 80 years and commiting genocide, war crimes and terrorism. I would also state that palestine has done the same and neither of us are right. I would then offer a complete withdrawl of Israel from the region, a dissolution of the state under the condition that 1) all hostages are returned 2) all israelis are allowed an appropriate amount of time to leave the country and 3) any israelis that decide to stay who were born on the land be granted citizenship in Palestine and an equal vote.
Once palestine agrees and the hostages released I would dissolve the state and leave.
Now in all reality neither me nor anyone has complete control to decide the situation. So in any practical sense that will never happen, nor am I expecting it to. But youa sked what I would do if i had control and that would be it.
I would dissolve the state and leave.
Okay, sounds like a great plan indeed. Plans like this are the main reason why the war is now going on for 80 years, and Hamas continuously wrecks any agreed actual peace plans.
Your response makes absolutely no sense.. If you dissolve the state and leave there is no state to have a war WITH... so no the war didnt continue for 80 years because of ideas like this, that makes no sense.
But postulating 10 million people who built the whole country for several generation does make sense?
In my scenario the israelis still own whatever they own and live there. They just are under the government that actually owns the land, palestine. As I said one of the conditions is anyone born ont he land is allowed to stay and given citizenship, this also assumes they retain whatever private land they own so long as they bought it fairly from the palestinian that owned it.
Obviously any infrastructure that exists through theft does not make sense to be allowed to keep.
I think the realism of your plan is best assessed through Hamas position on Holocaust and best illustrated the number of Jews living in Gaza.
Not sure why any of that matters.. its their land, they did nothing to deserve loosing it and were simply invaded. So until the occupying force leaves and especially when they are the ones overpowered and forced into ghettos,then there is absolutely no chance for the Israelis to be the good guys.
The whole "but we built up the area after we stole it and killed everyone" is a pretty damn poor excuse for why they should keep it.
Your statement "it's their land" is exclusively based on 1947 as an arbitrary cut-off date. If Palestinians "were invaded" by Jews, then what in your opinion happened to Jerusalem in 1187?
I won't even comment on your postulate that the extremely antisemitic policy of Hamas "doesn't matter", because it's precisely the part that makes your plan so detached from reality.
@realcaseyrollins
@kravietz @freemo > Your statement "it's their land" is exclusively based on 1947 as an arbitrary cut-off date. If Palestinians "were invaded" by Jews, then what in your opinion happened to Jerusalem in 1187?
I'm curious as to his response to this one. It's almost impossible to hold to a "muh stolen land" position without cognitive dissonance because nearly all lands that are owned by various nations (except for #Alaska) were taken by conquest.
I'm not seeing many people running around saying "Free #Texas" and claiming we need to give it back to #Mexico.
Generally speaking moral nations that took land through conquest make an attempt to make up for it by giving that land back to the people later in generous qty, with very generous rules and government subsedies.
Look at the native americans, they get automatic citizenship, free movement from reservations to american soil with complete equality legally on american soil. AND are given tons of authority over their land that no other legal framework exists for any other people. So much so our cops cant even arrest people on their land.
Moreover this is **veryy=** rare. In almost all historic cases when we conquer land the natives of that land are allowed to continue living on it (under a new rule), even in anctient times.
So yea the level of brutalitya nd immorality of Israel to literally wipe the land clean of the natives is a level of evil that is rarely seen, even in history. Native americans are really the only well known example of that and even then as I said we gave up a LOT to try to apologize for that.
Nevermind the fact that for that to happen in modern times is almost unheard of and when it does consistently cuases public outrage, as it is with the invasion of georgia, ukraine, etc.
@freemo @kravietz > to literally wipe the land clean of the natives is a level of evil that is rarely seen, even in history
Isn't that generally what happens? Outside of modern history, I thought that if the natives weren't forced to flee or were made slaves, they were usually indeed slaughtered. #GenghisKhan was actually notorious for this, I think. #China is also doing a bit of both genocide and slavery to the #Uyghur Muslims.