@thatguyoverthere @niclas

Huh? We covered this just a day or two ago...

1910 prices/wages it would take 3 hours of factory work to earn 1 pound of butter, compare that to today where it takes only 20 minutes worth of effort to earn that same butter.

So quite the opposite the value has **increased** not decreased at all.

Where you get confusion is between about 1970 and today work place related deaths have dropped to 1/3 of what they used to be (far more so if we count from 1910). So while in 1975 it only took 12 minutes to earn 1 lbs of butter you did so with 3x the risk to your life. So today we simply pay extra for increased safety, which of course adds to cost.

@freemo

Production efficiency goes up and prices will naturally fall over time.

Service wages; everything that is mostly priced for human effort only, prices have increased. Partly due to better living standards for everyone, but a big chunk because of taxation causing inefficiencies (I saw somewhere that ~ 1/3 of taxation is used for what it is meant for, and 2/3 are inefficiencies and bureaucracies).

All of this is independent of "value of money/currency"

@thatguyoverthere

@freemo @niclas you are high sir, we haven't talked about "the ecomony" a day or two ago. Also it doesn't really matter where the beginning of arc is, the point is that money today is not able to buy the same things it could before. I'm not really looking for a debate tbh it was primarily a shit post to begin with. I also don't really care about the butter example because the butter you are referring to is probably subsidized and the cows are grain fed so it's going to lead to more inflamation. The old butter that cost more of your time was healthier for you. To buy that same butter you will pay a higher price. I'd have to check what my butter costs but I am certain it's more than the stuff you get at walmart.

As far as work place deaths go, that tends to happen when you ship all your manufacturing jobs out of the country.

@thatguyoverthere

> you are high sir, we haven't talked about "the ecomony" a day or two ago.

I am not talking about you and me personally, but on my feed.

> Also it doesn't really matter where the beginning of arc is, the point is that money today is not able to buy the same things it could before.

I just proved the exact opposite, not only can it buy what it could before it can buy **much** more than before. Again used to take 3 hours worth of money to buy a poiund of butter and now it only takes 20 minutes... That doesnt make money worthless.

@niclas

@freemo @niclas > it can buy much more

no. no it can't. You pointed at butter and I pointed out is almost certainly of lower quality. Comparing purchase of a lower quality product with a higher quality one is not a fair comparison. Look at housing. Not only are the houses built today of much lower quality, they cost significantly more than they used to.

Anyway like I said I wasn't really looking for a debate. It was a shit post. If you love the federal reserve love them with all your heart.

@thatguyoverthere

Except the exact opposite is true. Butter is of hiugher quality in terms of purity, safety, and cleanliness.. it kills fewer people objectively.

I never said I love the federal reserve, I am all for changing it. But to attack all fiat is just disconnected with reality. We can do better than the reserve with an open=democratic system. But it would still be fiat based.

Remember we used to try to do non-fiat money, and thats why we had the great depression. Fiat money was intended to fix that and we have not seen anything even remotely bad as the great depression since.

@niclas

@freemo @niclas That's a silly thing to say. Grain fed cows pumped with horomone are not producing "safer and higher quality" dairy products that's just retarded.

The great depression literally came less than a decade after the invention of the Federal Reserve :shrug:

I Don't care if currency is "fiat based". Technically monero is fiat based, but you can't just go print yourself more when you want to give it to your friends like the USG does with the USD.

@thatguyoverthere @niclas @freemo if the item is the same percentage of income then by definition the "worth" hasn't changed in that particular context, no?

of course there's more to the economy than buying drinks, and even if _all_ CPI metrics across the _entire_ remained absolutely identical inflation would still constitute a tax on savings, but neither of those would make the currency worthless

@roboneko @niclas @freemo it was a shitpost.

Yes in this example it would seem the worth hasn't much changed, but we all know it has in reality.

Also our currency is nearly worthless. Leaving off the nearly part was just to make a joke.

@thatguyoverthere

Its not "nearly worthless" either... In fact its worth is quite high, you can literally buy **anything** with it thatis for sale.

@niclas @roboneko

@freemo @thatguyoverthere @niclas I want to know what he's been trying to buy that he would consider it worthless ...

@roboneko @niclas @freemo > The dollar had an average inflation rate of 2.80% per year between 1919 and today, producing a cumulative price increase of 1,674.86%.

anything. Look at rents and property values.

@thatguyoverthere

And? That has nothing to do with how much its worth today unless you relate it to wage and buying power today... What does someone from 1910 have to do with the value of paper bills today?

Keep in mind we do not sit on money we invest it, so anyone from 1910 **gained** value from that inflation didnt loose it.

@niclas @roboneko

@freemo @niclas @roboneko
> A dollar today only buys 5.634% of what it could buy back then.

@freemo @niclas @roboneko

@freemo @niclas @roboneko We just need another world war to get the value back

@thatguyoverthere

Thats not "getting the value back"... that would be decaluing investment, we **Dont** want that.

@niclas @roboneko

@freemo @niclas @roboneko not sure what decaluing is

@freemo @niclas @roboneko still responding to shitposts with retarded logic

@thatguyoverthere

I guess thats one way to not understand even basics without admitting it...

@niclas @roboneko

@thatguyoverthere

devaluing (notice c and v are next to each other)

@niclas @roboneko

@thatguyoverthere

You really arent getting this... Right, thats a good thing, it means investments from the 1910 have FAR more dollar value attached to it than they would otherwise... We **want** that behavior from money as it encourages a healthy economy... please try to understand basic economic theory, you really are missing the point.

@niclas @roboneko

@freemo @niclas @roboneko

> please try to understand basic economic theory

Here we go again with mother fucking Freemo. It's amazing how condecending you can be. Fuck off dude. You think there is only one "basic economic theory"?

Might I recommend https://mises.org/

@thatguyoverthere

No there are **many** and you seem to be ignorant of literally all of them.

@niclas @roboneko

@freemo @niclas @roboneko yeah well you're just a piece of shit. I told you I wasn't interested in debate. You fucking replied to a shitpost and now I've allowed you to annoy me more than I should have. Go fuck yourself. You are a person I would probably fight in real life.

@thatguyoverthere

If you arent interested in debate be a grownup and... dont... debate.

I will give whatever feedback I feel like, you are welcome to debate or walk away. To engage in debate then cry foul as if you were forced sounds like a little toddler having a tantrum. Grow up.

@niclas @roboneko

@freemo @niclas @roboneko I literally said at the very beginning I was shitposting and not interested in debate. They you kept going. I'm done. Have fun, but be sure to go fuck yourself afterwards

@thatguyoverthere

LOL you think because you said at the begiing you didnt want to debate that means other people who are happy to discuss need to shut up... oh the ego. No if you were a mature adult you would have just not debated, and you wouldnt have cared if other people had opinions... **you** decided to get into a debate because you just couldnt live with someone having an opinion out there you disagree with.

The fact you think everyone needs to not have opinions or discussions when your fragile little ego doesnt want it says everything I need to know about you.

@niclas @roboneko

@freemo @niclas @roboneko you jumped in. Do what you want. I don't care to out in the effort for several reasons.

I was having fun and making jokes

I have real shit to do and the small amount of time I was going to be on here I'd rather have found a few good memes than being sucked into a masturbation ritual.

Even if I pull specific economic theories to discuss the "best" one seems primarily opinion based and my opinion isn't likely to change as I suspect is true of someone who believed modern monetary theory or some other retarded idea is the best.

I would rather I didn't have to mute threads I started because some fucking pseudointellectual feels like debating me when I said I didn't.

@thatguyoverthere @niclas @freemo
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@roboneko @niclas @freemo this is actually a good point. Economic theory is nothing but peoples opinions. I don't know if a best formula even exists. I do think that my money in early 2ks had more purchasing power than my money today. I make significantly more than I did then and have less flexibility in many ways.

This reaction though is pretty specific to freemo though. His particular methods of debate make me want to hit him. It's a regular thing.

@thatguyoverthere @niclas @freemo it's less "your money" and more "your wage relative to other people" since any exact dollar amount is only relevant when considered relative to the economic conditions of a particular point in time

CPI metrics are interesting because in some respects we have more material wealth but in others (ex housing) the state of things looks really bad. on the whole it seems to me like things are probably slipping

@roboneko @niclas @freemo my wage relative to other people is actually on average higher by a fair margin. I still feel pinched by the increase in cost of goods across the board over at least the past few years. I can't imagine making half of what I do and being able to live as comfortably as I do now (and I'm not even that comfy)

I'm being a little dramatic saying that I was personally in a better place financially 20+ years ago. I personally did not have the same flexibility I have today, but I was able to pay 400 a month to rent a 3 floor 5br house (in the ghetto but still). In the 1980s my Dad was able to bring home 20-30k and still afford to buy a house (albeit one that needed significant repairs).

It's funny because on the other hand many people are walking around with over a thousand dollars of electronics on their person which is just insane when you actually stop and think about it.

@thatguyoverthere

After your little tantrum about not wanti g to discuss it here you are still discussing it and still tagging me... classic.

No doubt if i dare give my perspective youll go right back to your tantrum though.

@niclas @roboneko

@thatguyoverthere @roboneko @freemo @niclas bruh, I make pretty good money, about 3 times over the minimum here and I feel like I can't afford shitty apartments here, which are now starting at 1000$ and are creeping up high. That's like a whole fucking 1/3 of my salary, that should be a fucking mortgage, not rent

@roboneko @niclas @freemo @thatguyoverthere
I think real the problem with inflation is not that you have dish out more paper to acquire the same goods, but that you have near-zero control over it. When your currency gets devalued — it's not up to you to decide, of course most of the time the monetary means are used to stabilize the economy, but what if some mistakes get made in the process?
Investing sounds nice in theory and if you make reasonably more than you spend, you can even diversify: lose some here, gain some there — all in all it might even be beneficial to you. But most can only "invest" in their day-to-day needs. So what would happen when prices go up, but all of a sudden you wage doesn't go up accordingly? Your central banker will just shrug and say: "Well, life is hard, man up!"— now that is the problem.

@m0xEE

In hylerinflation wages are delayed behind cost of goods and this causes serious issues.

Inflatio is only good when its low enough that it has a slow long term effect. We want inflation but not too much or too little

@freemo @thatguyoverthere @niclas I think you're both missing it tbh. inflation doesn't increase the "worth" of an investment. as with wages that's entirely relative and down to purchasing power

at the same time neither does it decrease the "worth" of what you get paid _today_ since you get paid in today's dollars and then (presumably) spend it in short order

the only scenario in which you lose out is if you sit on a pile of cash for an extended period. in other words it's just a shitty long term investment

this is gibberish
more money is not a default good thing, no persons opinion can prove this
@freemo @thatguyoverthere @niclas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_nGEj8wIP0
@freemo @thatguyoverthere @niclas

@p @thatguyoverthere @niclas

Stop tagging me, i dont care

@niclas

Money should have a store of value but does not need to be a "perfect store of value"... money can loose value over time, so long as it is a slow process, and it is still a store of value.

Much like a bucket that very slowly leaks is still a store of water, it just isnt a perfect store of water.

But more important to the fact is that this is a **desirable** quality... We want money to slowly loose value because that encourages investment rather than hoarding.

@thatguyoverthere