@libramoon

> not a criteria for murder at all

Huh, this is the first time the word murder was used in this thread. I was very careful about my choice of words. I said killed, not murder.

> do we murder attacking microbes or cure ourselves?

Murder? No, but I didnt ask anything about murder. I asked about killing, and yes, we kill them all the time. How is that relevant? Are you saying a person who is dependent on another to survive is equivalent to microbes?

> it's not even homicide...

Again, no one used that word either.

> unless they are developed enough to live outside the womb, but the ending of a process

Ok so again you didnt answer the question, I asked about killing, I didnt ask about murder or homicide. So your response hasnt really helped me know any better what your stance is.

@JuliusGoat

@freemo

, we have a newly forming creature growing within the body of a more mature creature of its kind. When that relationship is desired by the mother, it is wonderful and fulfilling. When that relationship is not desired, it is horrendous, nightmarish. Then, of course, there are the situations when the pregnancy is actually dangerous to the health of the mother, or to the health and well-being of her other children, or. ... https://windsongmyths.wordpress.com/2019/05/18/creating-hell-for-fun-and-profit/

@libramoon

> we have a newly forming creature growing within the body of a more mature creature of its kind. When that relationship is desired by the mother, it is wonderful and fulfilling. When that relationship is not desired, it is horrendous, nightmarish. Then, of course, there are the situations when the pregnancy is actually dangerous to the health of the mother, or to the health and well-being of her other children, or. ...

I dont disagree with any of those statements. But it also is not an answer to my question, perhaps that is my fault as I may not be asking my question clearly enough, and thus remain confused by your stance. I will retry to ask again.

Without invoking any statements about the **specific case of abortion**, in other words, without talking about whombs, mothers, or fetuses (that includes descriptive references), would you mind explaining to me when it is right to kill some entity with human dna. Whether that be a clump of cancer, a fetus, or your best friend, what are the **general case** where killing a living human entity/thing is acceptable and morally ok.

Obviously you dont have to cover every possible case, just the rules that, while not referencing abortion, would be relevant in us to reason about abortion would be welcome.

I think some of your earlier statements could have been examples of this, but you seemed to backtrack (thats not a jab, backtracking is ok, it means we are exploring the ideas and refining them)... like you said one entity physically dependent on another, that would be a fine rule, would even cover cancer... but I think you realized quickly it could also be problematic. Ok so we changed our response slightly, but that didnt work either, again ok. So whats the real answer? One that doesnt just create a circular argument by pointing out its a fetus. We need the general case moral rules we are working under, or at least, I do if im going to get on board.

@freemo

self defense or the defense of others who need that help
or expressly asked for mercy killing

@libramoon

Fair, I think that is an answer that is more agreeable to me and satisfies the question. I appreciate that.

So in this case I presume we are seeing an abortion as a self-defense against the invasiveness of the fetus?

@freemo

yes

@libramoon

Ok fair, then I think I understand your logic here.

I do see some problems with it, so it may either be wrong, or at least incomplete. Or perhaps simply an unfair characterization of pregnancy. Or maybe its something else where I am wrong and just have not realized it yet. Lets explore if your willing.

So I would argue that its more nuanced than this. it depends largely on what the pregnant lady knew, and when, and how she got pregnant. In certain circumstances this is scenario is harder for me to agree with than others.

For example lets say the woman simply didnt know she was pregnant, or worse yet was raped. In that case its hard to force a child on a woman.

Lets say the situation is such that the woman knew she was pregnant early on, and engaged in unprotected sex, so the pregnancy is largely an act of negligence on her part for not using protection. Furthermore she gets an abortion late int he process with no particular change in her circumstances that would drive her to do so. Lets also assume she could have afforded it. In this scenario I would say it is the fetus who is in the position it is in due to the negligence and willful actions of the mother. As such it would appear, if I am being objective, that making abortion illegal (in this scenario only) would inf act be required to adhere to your own rules, that is, it would be an act of self-defense on the part of the fetus because the fetus is only in the position of being threatened due to the negligence and willful actions of the woman.

So while I do feel we are getting closer to a useful world view it still feels inconsistent or incomplete to me.

@freemo

why are you making assumptions about fictional women?
if this pregnant person is indeed aborting this fetus for purely arbitrary reasons -- not because she would be in danger -- then, of course she is doing right by her not to be born child by not giving them both miserable lives

@libramoon

> why are you making assumptions about fictional women?

It was neither a fictional woman nor an assumption. It was a category of scenario, that category may never happen, it may happen often, I was showing that certain categories would leave to your application of your rule causing counter intuitive consequences. I am not saying that those scenarios happen, are you saying you are ok with **if** such a scenario were to happen then abortion would be made illegal to defend the life of the fetus?

> if this pregnant person is indeed aborting this fetus for purely arbitrary reasons -- not because she would be in danger -- then, of course she is doing right by her not to be born child by not giving them both miserable lives

So if we could garuntee the baby not to have a miserable life, for example some wonderful family is willing to adopt the baby, then by this logic the abortion should be legally stopped. Doring so would uphold the two criteria you set: self-defense principle for the fetus and not having a miserable life for the fetus.

@freemo

and the fictional mom? Have we honestly delved her reasons? Is she ok with this adoption? Why legally? The law has no place in these personal matters (even if there are laws that do)
How about we have a fictional conversation with those involved and see where we are?

@libramoon Sure, in this scenario you had that conversation and they are the perfect family in every way as far as all investigations go.

Should the abortion be stopping. You can say no, it just means your moral rules we established are incomplete. Thats fine, we can always endeavor to complete them.

For the record so far your logic is in line with all my own reasoning on the subject, and in turn found similar paradoxes, things that logically meant i was missing something, and/or wrong... So me pressing you for your logic is not meant to say your wrong, Im only curious how you get over this ethical hurdle and if, whatever that is, might give me some insight on how to further refine my own POV.

You also can disengage anytime you want, you dont have to answer. I am just making clear why i am drilling you like this, as I want to make it clear it is not to convince you you are wrong, but rather, to elucidate your reasoning for my own consideration.

@freemo

death is the natural result of life
no one is guaranteed anything
hopefully we learn to avoid the stupidity of activities that are both bad for us and others, but people tend toward stupidity when not sufficiently motivated to think
abortion is neither the problem nor the important issue

@libramoon

> abortion is neither the problem nor the important issue

So you are ok that it is illegal in some states? Because abortion isnt an important issue?

I would disagree, I'd say its a very important issue and it being illegal in some states is very concerning. It is also concerning to me when late-term abortions are made legal on the other extreme of the issue.

@freemo

the point is abortion is not the point -- it is the subjugation of women, which is evil and a majorly important issue

and most late term abortions are to save the life or health of the mother when a pregnancy has gone wrong -- so illegal to save women's lives

people don't actively seek out medical procedures without real motivation

here's a short story that may help
https://bdelectablemnts.runboard.com/t2681

@libramoon

I am ok with medical exemptions being made if it poses a higher than normal risk to the mother and she is only just finding out late.

@freemo

complications can occur at any time -- or get worse
or maybe everyone can be saved if the mother goes on bed rest for the rest of the pregnancy -- so what does she do about other obligations? how is she to pay for this complicated pregnancy while unable to work?
it's all about life or death, right?
how about when the baby will have serious health issues? The potential mother is the person who makes these choices for herself and progeny -- let her have the autonomy

@libramoon

We dont give people the free reign to decide what they want to do with their bodies with any other treatment. Even to get a cancer removed a doctor would need to approve it and decide that the patients life is actually in danger. Why should abortions be the only exception?

@freemo

we ought to be giving people that bodily autonomy -- in my experience, doctors are not gods, judges, juries or very good at listening to their clients' concerns or facts

@freemo

here I have posted in the past on such issues if you are looking for my viewpoint: https://windsongmyths.wordpress.com/2019/05/18/creating-hell-for-fun-and-profit/

@freemo @JuliusGoat

🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
@freemo
@libramoon

So no, its not because they are confined to the womb your saying, it is because their life is dependent on another to survive? So is that the criteria in which murder is not murder?