#DeusEx comments I chose...
#Cyberpunk game #RPG #genre

Louis_Cypher
Joined Jan 1, 2016
Messages 1,879

Sep 5, 2023
#1

It managed to capture the true spirit of our time, the erosion of rights like privacy or freedom of movement, the erosion of ancient national traditions, of spiritual convictions that grant dignity to human life, or inherited ethnic roots, by globalist cabals, in favour of rootless consumers, and a homogenous global migrant labour force, in a way very little else has. A French woman lamenting the loss of national sovereignty, tastes, and identity, to globalist-driven internationalism. Political change that was never sought, elected, or given democratic mandate, driven by faceless cabals. American nationals rebelling because the principles of the American Revolution have been sold out to international finance. If a certain type of fiction, is meant to take a serious look at society, it looks downright prophetic compared to things that pose as serious observational takes today. To be fair, cyberpunk of all kinds predicts a dystopia, but Deux Ex presented it's case in a way that has aged like wine. At the time, I just thought it was a cyberpunk trope to imagine the worst corporation-ruled excess, in which everything was commodified, and that Deus Ex was one permutation of this future. Today, we have seen the entire planet locked down, a vaccine administered without years of trials that usually accompany a new medicine, campaigns directed against the heritage of nations, school-imparted historical illiteracy; so Deus Ex's depictions of disaster policy, or how information is controlled, looks very apt.

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Most criticism of globalism, around then, used to be leftist, at least outside America; more anti-capitalist agenda driven, seeing class as the only dimension of life, rather than being just generally pro-living things, pro-truth, anti-exploitation, they were vaguely socialist or anarchist. This was before most European and American leftists, usually middle-class, were revealed to care more about rootless internationalism, access to exotic food, and open border migration than their own people's suffering or welfare. The majority of socialists were revealed as the ally of globalism, their media using tools of 'social justice' to further erode actual justice. Primarily leftist critiques tended to suppress the ethnic-denying and destroying component to globalism. National tribes being one of the principle barriers to internationalism and thus one of the foremost targets of globalist propaganda. Suddenly nations that had been homogenous for 20,000 years, with organic customs, were "always migrants", etc. Deus Ex was more balanced, showing that the nation state has been a potent barrier to international financial agendas, often the primary means a people had of resisting global empire. Showing favourable attempts at resistance rooted in American, French or Chinese national tradition.

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Even Human Revolution is suprisingly true to the spirit of the first game. I think it's the second solid entry. Taking a look at science magazines and predicting where transhumanism would be in a decade or two through short 2-page ebooks. Some of it's in-game takes now look remarkably based for a 2011 cross-platform game on Xbox 360, PS3 and PC; criticism of the EU (something that is a totally contentious in some circles now), United Nations and cartels like the Bilderburg Group. Media that focused on something other than predictable establishment approved messages, was given more of a pass in those days. Whether or not they just threw whatever interesting 'conspiracy' they had into it, or had a more concerted world view, it worked out well.

Cat Headed Eagle
Joined Jan 21, 2023
Messages 3,593

Sep 5, 2023
#2

Deus Ex is relatively formulaic in its presentation, it's basically the core cyberpunk values as developed in the 80s but adorned by late 90s americana. Much of it is there in William Gibson's works. Cyberpunk is basically an answer to reaganomics and the cocaine induced enthusiasm of 80s yuppies. Deus Ex didn't create anything, but it is the best example of cyberpunk in gaming, because it is very matter-of-fact, and every aspect of cyberpunk and its aesthetic and themes are taken at face value.

buffalo bill
Joined Dec 8, 2016
Messages 1,039

Sep 5, 2023
#3

as fiction, neuromancer > > > deus ex

AlwaysBrotoMen
Joined Aug 30, 2023
Messages 259

Sep 5, 2023
#4

System shock, Blade Runner, and Snatcher are also good examples of cyberpunk.

Louis_Cypher
Joined Jan 1, 2016
Messages 1,879

Sep 5, 2023

#5

Blade Runner is aesthetic, but relatively 'apolitical'.

My favorites would be Ghost in the Shell, Blade Runner, The Matrix, Syndicate Wars, and Deus Ex.

Madclown
Joined Sep 4, 2023
Messages 1

Sep 5, 2023
#6

I feel as the term "Cyberpunk" has been perverted a good bit over the years, but yes, Deus Ex, and to an extent the prequels are contenders, at least with regards to computer games.

NecroLord
Joined Sep 6, 2022
Messages 13,140

Sep 7, 2023
#7

If I remember correctly Mike Pondsmith played Deus Ex and said it is not Cyberpunk (but he did like it).
It certainly lacks some of the style and flash associated with Cyberpunk, but it is a Dystopian setting.
With that being said, Deus Ex is one of my favorite games. It has left a strong legacy and its influence can be felt up to this day.

JamesDixon
Joined Jul 29, 2015
Messages 11,318

Sep 7, 2023
#8

Deus Ex is not cyberpunk since Denton is working for the government. Which renders the entire game CyberCorpo or CyberGov if you want to nitpick. To be punk one must be rebelling against the gov or the corps and stealing their shit so you can survive another day. In other words, you have to be a runner or a cowboy that operates outside the law.

NecroLord
JamesDixon said:
since Denton is working for the government

At least for the first part of the game.

Classic cyberpunk characters were marginalized, alienated loners who lived on the edge of society in generally dystopic futures where daily life was impacted by rapid technological change, an ubiquitous datasphere of computerized information, and invasive modification of the human body.

— Lawrence Person

JamesDixon
Joined Jul 29, 2015
Messages 11,318

Sep 7, 2023
#11

I missed this. I don't see how Reaganomics played a role in it since Cyberpunk originated with New Wave Sci-Fi of the 1960s and 1970s. Philip K. Dick published Do androids dream of electric sheep? in 1968. From 1962 till 1968, LBJ was in office. Nixon didn't get into office until 1969.

Tyranicon
Joined Oct 7, 2019
Messages 7,453

Sep 8, 2023
#12

JamesDixon said:
marginalized, alienated loners who lived on the edge of society in generally dystopic future

....Philip K. Dick published Do androids dream of electric sheep? in 1968. From 1962 till 1968, LBJ was in office. Nixon didn't get into office until 1969.

good book but it's not cyberpunk

way closer to cyberpunk is 'the shockwave rider' by brunner from 1975, which has a cool pre-internet vision of the internet and phone phreaking type hacking. but that's really also proto-cyberpunk

if you don't think gibson defines the genre, you're being dense

PorkyThePaladin
Joined Dec 17, 2013
Messages 5,376

Sep 8, 2023
#15

Louis_Cypher said:
...

Lol, funny post.

"Suddenly nations that had been homogenous for 20,000 years"

Name one nation that has been homogenous for 20,000 years. :)

There is nothing wrong per se with wanting to globalize the world. It's the most logical position for anyone who has learned about all the pointless wars of history, and sees (somewhat accurately) the human race as a bunch of violent monkeys on some speck of dust floating in space. Not to mention that this is a likely prerequisite for starting to colonize space.

The issues with it are:

1. It's one thing to have globalization as a gradual goal to aspire to, but it's another to shove it through at insane speed before various groups are ready for it. That's how you get let's say Euro countries flooded with immigrants from various backward nations, who start imposing aspects of their backward cultures on the locals which are not welcome.

2. The way the world is constructed, good things often lead to bad things. So while globalization is a good thing in many ways, it also makes us susceptible to the downsides of human nature much more that a more decentralized model. If you have a bunch of different nations, and one of them gets taken over by a horrible government, all the others are still ok and can counter it, but with a global government, if it turns bad (as every government in history at some point does), it's much more difficult to get rid of it.

General Disarray
Joined Feb 7, 2019
Messages 204

Sep 8, 2023
#16

I have actually been trying to familiarize my self a bit more with cyberpunk and similar subgenres recently. Like JamesDixon if you take a hardline stance the theme and setting is cyberpunk, but the character is not. Instead it is tech noir or cyber noir. Usually works like this like Ghost In The Shell gets classified as post cyberpunk, which to what I gathered is simply cyberpunk but has loosed the requirements of having a punk protagonist and also is accepting that technology could benefit humanity. Post cyberpunk being developed in the nineties where normal people started to interact with the modern internet and use computers in their daily life and thus making a lot of the 80s cyberpunk look hopelessly dated, archaic and a fantasy.

Maxie
Joined Nov 13, 2021
Messages 7,964

Sep 8, 2023
#17

snow crash the book is better because it's playful and schlocky, meanwhile deus ex is a soulless 'punk' product

Hobo Elf
Joined Feb 17, 2009
Messages 14,131

Sep 8, 2023
#18

Deus Ex the first game may very well be one of the best works of fiction ever made regardless of genre. Its sequels.. not so much.

Kev Inkline
Joined Nov 17, 2015
Messages 5,378

A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.

Sep 8, 2023
#20

Did you guys know that Pondsmith says he was more influenced by Hardwired by Walter Jon Williams than by Neuromancer? I think the former is also up there with the best of the genre. I wouldn't let Pondsmith's opinion what makes a piece of media cyberpunk be of any guidance, anyways.

JamesDixon JCD is marginalized and working alone like 80% of the game, I wouldn't let his origins dissuade anyone from classifying DX as cyberpunk.

DX1 is about the best of the genre in computer gaming, but as people have pointed out, storywise alone it's nothing groundbreaking.

JamesDixon
Joined Jul 29, 2015
Messages 11,318

Sep 8, 2023
#21

buffalo bill said:
good book but it's not cyberpunk

if you don't think gibson defines the genre, you're being dense

DADOES is cyberpunk whether you like it or not.

See folks this is your brain on drugs. Nowhere in my reply that he quoted did I say anything about William Gibson's work. What did Gibson do that added to the cyberpunk genre? He added netrunning. That's it. Gibson is influential, but he's not the father of cyberpunk.

Kev Inkline said:
@JamesDixon JCD is marginalized and working alone like 80% of the game, I wouldn't let his origins dissuade anyone from classifying DX as cyberpunk.

I'll side with Mike Pondsmith on this one. He is the father of the Cyberpunk RPG and he says it's good sci-fi, but it's not cyberpunk.

Last edited: Sep 8, 2023

Falksi
Joined Feb 14, 2017
Messages 10,912

Sep 8, 2023
#24

Fucking Masterpiece of whatever it is

forum source:
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/is-the-deus-ex-series-overall-the-best-work-of-cyberpunk-fiction-ever-made.148195/