If all lending with interest is usury because it's lending something and expecting more in return, then all anti-usury people need is a "lending" option that includes something silly in exchange for the interest. The lender needs to give something intangible along with the funds, paid for with a payment schedule calculated the same way interest is calculated. For example, Bo loans Jo $5000 along with a high five. Jo pays Bo 12 monthly payments of $425.75. Now that was an expensive high five, but it's no longer usury. Because of how silly that sounds, I don't think it's accurate to say all interest is usury.