#UK first country in #Europe to pass 150,000 #Covid-19 #deaths, figures show | #Coronavirus | The Guardian

Showing other Europeans how to do things properly – messing up the nation through capitulation to the #Tories' libertarian wing.

theguardian.com/world/2022/jan

#Pandemic

@mkwadee I'm incredibly thankful to the presence of the libertarian wing of the Tories; if I was in Germany or France I wouldn't be allowed to socialise or visit public places.

@skells It depends on how happy you are to trade your personal freedom for other people's deaths.

@mkwadee it's not my personal freedom, we have an obligation and duty to preserve the political freedom of future generations that we were given. This conversation is clearly being had in Whitehall, however bastardised, whereas most of Europe seems to rubber stamp restrictions.

@mkwadee and to be clear, I was all for travel restrictions and perhaps lockdowns when the severity of the disease was unclear. once it became clear that the disease was dangerous but not catastrophic I became more vigilant about the powers that were being arrogated.

mismanagement is not a justification for more government control - quite the opposite.

@skells Again, it depends on the degree to which you're willing to trade off one against the other. No country or government of any complexion is exempt. Where do you draw he line between catastrophic and dangerous? That it only kills 1% rather 5% of those it infects? In actuality, the conversation is not being held in Whitehall but in Johnson's yearning to cling to power with his backbench MPs. He is not leading he is following them.

@mkwadee it's a question of what the measures you're using to control the spread is. in 2020 I supported, roughly speaking, most of the measures but was against making criminal charges applicable to these guidelines.

when early treatment options seemed to show promise but were smeared, corbyn style, in favour of vaccination I became deeply concerned.

it's now over two years and a mild strain still has much of France and Germany in quasi-lockdown and the unvaccinated being scapegoated.

when there are tools on the table (early treatment, not a magic bullet but a cost effective, low risk option) that are being ignored in favour of expansion of government powers and expensive corporate solutions my hope is that .ost democratically minded people would become concerned.

r.e. Johnson being a follower and not a leader, if it's outcome is a reduction in government overreach then I'm all for it.

@skells I'm not one who really goes for ends justifying the means and there are less severe measures than full lockdowns which should have been pursued like circuit-breaker lockdowns (briefer and more localized) which could and should have been utilized. Johnson is weak and ignorant and only follows where he thinks he can garner popularity. Neither he nor the Tories have handled this other than badly.

@mkwadee all I see is a representative democracy behaving, broadly speaking, as advertised.

more generally, "Tory this, Johnson that" is just as bad as people bewailing Corbyn as a bad leader - it short circuits any room for debate on policy in favour of party politics

@skells Why on Earth are you talking about Corbyn? It is the incumbent government's responsibility, nobody else's. From what I've seen, it's politicians ignoring scientific advice until it's too late and then making overbearing and bad decisions time and again.

@mkwadee obviously Corbyn has nothing to do with Covid response, but the character od public discourse about him rhymes with that of Johnson (although Johnson has done far more to earn it in my view)

the view on scientific advice is interesting, did you have any stand out failings/things that should have been done?

@skells There have been pronouncements from the chief medical officer and chief scientific officer and also leaks from SAGE about various options like circuit breakers which were offered as possible ways to militate against the spread but the politicians prevaricated and the only option left was full lockdown. Nobody, including me wants to see that again but hospitalizations and deaths are again on the rise.

@mkwadee I'm doubtful circuit breakers would have worked, because a proportion of people would have ignored them and the problem continues

SAGE did recommend that we were treated as rational citizens and informed rather than ordered to do certain things, this would have been far healthier in the long term

as to hospitalisations and deaths on the rise, hospitalisations are picking up slightly but not deaths - the post you made a few days ago seemed to be an artefact of the holidays not an appreciable rise in deaths.

I wholeheartedly agree that science has been papered over in favour of caving to political pressure.

we've been terrorised by daily health briefings quite enough - the government has failed to make use of numerous early treatment options which have had incredible success in India and Japan. This makes their dictates on Covid illegitimate in my eyes and I'm glad there's a vocal and effective wing in government which behaves accordingly.

@skells Nobody is being terrorized by daily briefings but they highlight the failure of the government. The opposition (Labour, SNP and Plaid Cymru) have also been proposing some sensible things but Johnson, rather than listening and acting like a PM during a national crisis, is distracted by factions of his own party rather than the national interest.

@mkwadee Johnson has behaved, more or less, like almost every other national leader has in this, the only noticeable difference is that he has been reigned in by his own party (and principled individuals across the house) when his policies grossly overstepped our natural rights.

To repeat, France and Germany have been only too willing to overstep those bounds.

I'm not concerned with giving Johnson a rating, my concern is with government taking any more power than they have already arrogated themselves

@skells I don't believe Germany has gone too far, though I think France has in my opinion. However, is there evidence that their changes will b permanent? The problem here is that he is listening only to one side and not the representatives of large areas of the nation.

@mkwadee I don't think that's the case at all, Labour have rubber stamped most of his policies.

@skells I don't thinks so, I think Labour are looking at the national interest (and to be sure, their own political future).

Sign in to participate in the conversation
Qoto Mastodon

QOTO: Question Others to Teach Ourselves
An inclusive, Academic Freedom, instance
All cultures welcome.
Hate speech and harassment strictly forbidden.