https://youtu.be/rY_XyEVHK5M Dud (~Russian Joe Rogan) interviews Russian international relations expert and philologist, Russian democracy and the war form a big part of the conversation. Interview takes place in Athens, echoes of Thucydides
Don't be deceived by Dud, he's wicked sharp in his questions
Russia is more complex than Twitter/CIA would have you believe
@hrast @laurel @7 @Arkana @FreeFediBookClub @Intramuros_ @Leyonhjelm @MK2boogaloo @clayvaulin @sim @tarperfume
behind on the reading but this is suuuper relevant
@skells @hrast @laurel @7 @Arkana @Intramuros_ @Leyonhjelm @MK2boogaloo @clayvaulin @tarperfume I'm glad that I'm not alone in being behind on the reading. This week is kicking my arse. I'm too tired by the time I get around to read, it takes concentration.
@skells @Arkana @7 @clayvaulin @laurel @MK2boogaloo @hrast @Intramuros_ @tarperfume @Leyonhjelm Well, I was considering the angle of Russia being Spartans worried about the threats from Athens... but I need to read on to see if this applies.
Follow
@sim @Arkana @7 @clayvaulin @laurel @MK2boogaloo @hrast @Intramuros_ @tarperfume @Leyonhjelm it's more layered than that, I love the way this guys mind works
@skells @Arkana @7 @clayvaulin @laurel @MK2boogaloo @hrast @Intramuros_ @tarperfume @Leyonhjelm Oh yeah. I look forward to figuring just how layered it is.
@sim @Arkana @MK2boogaloo @clayvaulin @laurel @hrast @Intramuros_ @skells @tarperfume @Leyonhjelm I don't know where everyone is in the reading but this has a way of getting very exciting for stretches of time, interrupted only by the need to account for the number of ships and men lead by whom and deployed where. One thing I haven't seen a footnote about but I've been thinking about; Thucydides will describe an encamped army as "barbarians" but I don't know that that's a good translation... within context it sounds like "irregulars" to me; not professional hoplites but military ranks of recruited or enslaved soldiers of (at best) mixed skill or training.
@7 @sim @Arkana @Intramuros_ @Leyonhjelm @clayvaulin @hrast @laurel @skells @tarperfume hoplites are made of professional men if I'm not wrong (certain classes of people which had privileges) so these barbarians he was talking about may indicate lack of training, equipment, morale etc.
@MK2boogaloo
Hoplites werent generally prefessionals, more like militias of free men who could afford weapons and armor. i dont remember barbarians in the ancient greek sense (non-greeks, mainly from asia minor) in the early years of the wars so it could be slaves or other lower classes, or i could be misremembering and mercenaries may have taken part.
@7 @Arkana @Intramuros_ @Leyonhjelm @hrast @laurel @sim @skells @tarperfume
Hoplites werent generally prefessionals, more like militias of free men who could afford weapons and armor. i dont remember barbarians in the ancient greek sense (non-greeks, mainly from asia minor) in the early years of the wars so it could be slaves or other lower classes, or i could be misremembering and mercenaries may have taken part.
@7 @Arkana @Intramuros_ @Leyonhjelm @hrast @laurel @sim @skells @tarperfume
@clayvaulin @Arkana @7 @MK2boogaloo @laurel @hrast @Intramuros_ @skells @tarperfume @Leyonhjelm I think that both took part. At least, I think both barbarians and mercenaries have been mentioned.
I managed to finish book I for today, but I haven't started the second book. How far is everyone else?
I managed to finish book I for today, but I haven't started the second book. How far is everyone else?
@sim
Still way behind. Hoping to give it some time today.
@Arkana @7 @MK2boogaloo @clayvaulin @laurel @hrast @Intramuros_ @skells @tarperfume
Still way behind. Hoping to give it some time today.
@Arkana @7 @MK2boogaloo @clayvaulin @laurel @hrast @Intramuros_ @skells @tarperfume
@Leyonhjelm @Arkana @7 @MK2boogaloo @clayvaulin @laurel @hrast @Intramuros_ @skells @tarperfume I hope you get some time to read today too. Would be interesting to get your thoughts on it.
@sim
It's been interesting to read back through it, since I worked on a creative project professionally a couple of decades back that took strong influence from this particular book and a few other major classics of the period.
@Arkana @7 @MK2boogaloo @clayvaulin @laurel @hrast @Intramuros_ @skells @tarperfume
It's been interesting to read back through it, since I worked on a creative project professionally a couple of decades back that took strong influence from this particular book and a few other major classics of the period.
@Arkana @7 @MK2boogaloo @clayvaulin @laurel @hrast @Intramuros_ @skells @tarperfume
@Leyonhjelm @Arkana @7 @MK2boogaloo @clayvaulin @laurel @hrast @Intramuros_ @skells @tarperfume Oh, cool. It is interesting to see how they used to do warfare in the past and how the different cultures interacted with each other at war and politically. Even back then, not every encounter led to all men dying and they could somewhat save face with setting up a trophy. In some ways, they were permitted to sort their own internal conflicts out. It is interesting how this book has led to influencing so many other things.
@sim
You know what's interesting is ice hockey used to be this way. Each team had enforcers, and there was a certain level of understanding that if you crossed the line, you'd answer to the other team's enforcer with your fists. Until my beloved Broad Street Bullies took advantage of that beyond what people thought was appropriate that the rules of the game went from a thin pamphlet to a full-blown rulebook. Even today, there's still traces of teams doing their own conflict resolution in the game. I've seen guys who never fight challenge other players when the line is crossed from time to time because that's what you have to do.
@Arkana @7 @MK2boogaloo @clayvaulin @laurel @hrast @Intramuros_ @skells @tarperfume
You know what's interesting is ice hockey used to be this way. Each team had enforcers, and there was a certain level of understanding that if you crossed the line, you'd answer to the other team's enforcer with your fists. Until my beloved Broad Street Bullies took advantage of that beyond what people thought was appropriate that the rules of the game went from a thin pamphlet to a full-blown rulebook. Even today, there's still traces of teams doing their own conflict resolution in the game. I've seen guys who never fight challenge other players when the line is crossed from time to time because that's what you have to do.
@Arkana @7 @MK2boogaloo @clayvaulin @laurel @hrast @Intramuros_ @skells @tarperfume
@Leyonhjelm @Arkana @7 @MK2boogaloo @clayvaulin @laurel @hrast @Intramuros_ @skells @tarperfume
That is unfortunate that people took advantage of rules like that. But it is interesting how various sports have changed over time.
That is unfortunate that people took advantage of rules like that. But it is interesting how various sports have changed over time.
@sim
read it 2 years ago, dont want to reread so soon so i'm relying on my memory and sparknotes
@7 @Arkana @Intramuros_ @Leyonhjelm @MK2boogaloo @hrast @laurel @skells @tarperfume
read it 2 years ago, dont want to reread so soon so i'm relying on my memory and sparknotes
@7 @Arkana @Intramuros_ @Leyonhjelm @MK2boogaloo @hrast @laurel @skells @tarperfume
@clayvaulin @Arkana @7 @MK2boogaloo @laurel @hrast @Intramuros_ @skells @tarperfume @Leyonhjelm Fair enough. It's quite the undertaking. It's nice to be able to read with people even though it has been difficult to find the time, especially being sick which wears me down.
@sim
One of my bigger time sucks the past couple of weeks has been my wife decided it's time for us to update our network at home, so that means it falls to me to do the shopping for our new laptops (we're on very old desktops and it's time, she's not wrong) and a NAS device since backups are important. The first two laptops we got in came faulty (always a risk with refurbs) and we bit the bullet and bought new for our second attempt.
@Arkana @7 @MK2boogaloo @clayvaulin @laurel @hrast @Intramuros_ @skells @tarperfume
One of my bigger time sucks the past couple of weeks has been my wife decided it's time for us to update our network at home, so that means it falls to me to do the shopping for our new laptops (we're on very old desktops and it's time, she's not wrong) and a NAS device since backups are important. The first two laptops we got in came faulty (always a risk with refurbs) and we bit the bullet and bought new for our second attempt.
@Arkana @7 @MK2boogaloo @clayvaulin @laurel @hrast @Intramuros_ @skells @tarperfume
@Leyonhjelm @Arkana @7 @MK2boogaloo @clayvaulin @laurel @hrast @Intramuros_ @skells @tarperfume That is fair enough. I hope it goes well from here on, without the hiccups of faulty parts. Now is probably a good time to update things, because it's not going to get better for probably the next few years. I don't know how long our politicians intend to keep their proxy war going. It's been 8 years so far.
@sim
Honestly I think it's entirely possible that electricity will be a luxury within our lifetime if they keep this up. And they'll blame something stupid and unrelated.
@Arkana @7 @MK2boogaloo @clayvaulin @laurel @hrast @Intramuros_ @skells @tarperfume
Honestly I think it's entirely possible that electricity will be a luxury within our lifetime if they keep this up. And they'll blame something stupid and unrelated.
@Arkana @7 @MK2boogaloo @clayvaulin @laurel @hrast @Intramuros_ @skells @tarperfume
@Leyonhjelm @Arkana @7 @MK2boogaloo @clayvaulin @laurel @hrast @Intramuros_ @skells @tarperfume
Right now, they are blaming Putin. I just want them to own up to their decisions rather than hiding behind the blame game or making excuses. I hope electricity isn't a luxury but you might be right. Makes me wonder what became a luxury for the Greeks.
Right now, they are blaming Putin. I just want them to own up to their decisions rather than hiding behind the blame game or making excuses. I hope electricity isn't a luxury but you might be right. Makes me wonder what became a luxury for the Greeks.
@sim
I think what scares them the most is the media losing traction. The blame game only works when those messaging channels are under control.
I suspect the things which became a luxury for the Greeks were the things which were actually luxuries. Life was simpler and self-sustaining was more feasible, so goods which came via travel are at the top of the list for me. Of course, war also tends to cause famine, so guaranteed access to food is also quickly realized as a luxury. An army coming through your area would have snapped up the firewood in the area and cut down a lot of trees as well, though thankfully the Mediterranean has mild winters.
@Arkana @7 @MK2boogaloo @clayvaulin @laurel @hrast @Intramuros_ @skells @tarperfume
I think what scares them the most is the media losing traction. The blame game only works when those messaging channels are under control.
I suspect the things which became a luxury for the Greeks were the things which were actually luxuries. Life was simpler and self-sustaining was more feasible, so goods which came via travel are at the top of the list for me. Of course, war also tends to cause famine, so guaranteed access to food is also quickly realized as a luxury. An army coming through your area would have snapped up the firewood in the area and cut down a lot of trees as well, though thankfully the Mediterranean has mild winters.
@Arkana @7 @MK2boogaloo @clayvaulin @laurel @hrast @Intramuros_ @skells @tarperfume
@Leyonhjelm @Arkana @7 @MK2boogaloo @clayvaulin @laurel @hrast @Intramuros_ @skells @tarperfume
But in making those channels under their control, they have ensured that they are less trustworthy to the public. Although, some of it is also their fault, for letting the plebs have access to global stations around the world to see how different or similar things are there. Then again, we live in cynical times... it's the only way they get to tear down the institutions and traditions.
Yeah. I wonder how much outsourcing the Greeks had too. I imagine that they needed it to some extent, often being island cities. I think you are right, the food would be a luxury like the trade routes. I think this was mentioned in a speech to the allies of Sparta. That letting the coastal cities get destroyed would impact the cities further inland too, especially with the trade routes. That it was in their interests too.
But in making those channels under their control, they have ensured that they are less trustworthy to the public. Although, some of it is also their fault, for letting the plebs have access to global stations around the world to see how different or similar things are there. Then again, we live in cynical times... it's the only way they get to tear down the institutions and traditions.
Yeah. I wonder how much outsourcing the Greeks had too. I imagine that they needed it to some extent, often being island cities. I think you are right, the food would be a luxury like the trade routes. I think this was mentioned in a speech to the allies of Sparta. That letting the coastal cities get destroyed would impact the cities further inland too, especially with the trade routes. That it was in their interests too.
@sim
They're overplaying their hand. Keeping people from realizing it's under control was vital to the illusion.
I suspect the Greeks had some trade primarily as a way to benefit from their surplus. A lot of times, the point of trade isn't simply to profit in one direction but to mutually find a way to utilize an overabundance of two different things in different places. Simple luxury import/export as a norm for the common man is, I think, a relatively recent concept.
@Arkana @7 @MK2boogaloo @clayvaulin @laurel @hrast @Intramuros_ @skells @tarperfume
They're overplaying their hand. Keeping people from realizing it's under control was vital to the illusion.
I suspect the Greeks had some trade primarily as a way to benefit from their surplus. A lot of times, the point of trade isn't simply to profit in one direction but to mutually find a way to utilize an overabundance of two different things in different places. Simple luxury import/export as a norm for the common man is, I think, a relatively recent concept.
@Arkana @7 @MK2boogaloo @clayvaulin @laurel @hrast @Intramuros_ @skells @tarperfume
@Leyonhjelm @sim @7 @Arkana @Intramuros_ @MK2boogaloo @clayvaulin @hrast @skells @tarperfume
>A lot of times, the point of trade isn't simply to profit in one direction but to mutually find a way to utilize an overabundance of two different things in different places.
That's usually after you have a trade system established.
Unintuitively the trade of luxuries targeted at end consumers in the higher classes preceded trade relying on specialization of production in some area (topical division of labor). That is at least how European trade got reinstated during the middle ages after it completely stopped after the fall of the Roman Empire.
The common man always consumes mass produced goods either locally produced or imported.
>A lot of times, the point of trade isn't simply to profit in one direction but to mutually find a way to utilize an overabundance of two different things in different places.
That's usually after you have a trade system established.
Unintuitively the trade of luxuries targeted at end consumers in the higher classes preceded trade relying on specialization of production in some area (topical division of labor). That is at least how European trade got reinstated during the middle ages after it completely stopped after the fall of the Roman Empire.
The common man always consumes mass produced goods either locally produced or imported.
@laurel
There's somewhat of a parallel in manufacturing today. Cars, for example, have tiers which make more sense when you understand the way development works. When you buy a Lamborghini, which is a subsidiary of Audi, which is part of VW Group, you are paying for the R&D for new advancements in that Lamborghini. This means new manufacturing techniques, new technologies, and new ways that are not efficient to perform can be tried.
Successful features will find their way into Audi and possibly into VW models once they've been sorted out and the manufacturing process is worked out enough to be cost-effective.
With trade before motorized or refrigerated transport in particular, often the route is tested as a luxury and if successful, the quantities sent can increase to a volume once sale is a more sure thing, and with lower risk comes a lower cost to the buyer and an opportunity for more sales for the seller. Nobody wants to pay to ship something that may not find a buyer and may even rot away if the trip doesn't end with a buyer. Once an item is in common usage, though, a route can last generations.
@Arkana @7 @MK2boogaloo @clayvaulin @hrast @Intramuros_ @skells @tarperfume @sim
There's somewhat of a parallel in manufacturing today. Cars, for example, have tiers which make more sense when you understand the way development works. When you buy a Lamborghini, which is a subsidiary of Audi, which is part of VW Group, you are paying for the R&D for new advancements in that Lamborghini. This means new manufacturing techniques, new technologies, and new ways that are not efficient to perform can be tried.
Successful features will find their way into Audi and possibly into VW models once they've been sorted out and the manufacturing process is worked out enough to be cost-effective.
With trade before motorized or refrigerated transport in particular, often the route is tested as a luxury and if successful, the quantities sent can increase to a volume once sale is a more sure thing, and with lower risk comes a lower cost to the buyer and an opportunity for more sales for the seller. Nobody wants to pay to ship something that may not find a buyer and may even rot away if the trip doesn't end with a buyer. Once an item is in common usage, though, a route can last generations.
@Arkana @7 @MK2boogaloo @clayvaulin @hrast @Intramuros_ @skells @tarperfume @sim
@Leyonhjelm @Arkana @7 @MK2boogaloo @clayvaulin @laurel @hrast @Intramuros_ @skells @tarperfume
Yeah. It doesn't help that so few people own the media. I've noticed that they keep overplaying things, things are less subtle now.
I think you are right there. There were times where they would rely on looting and piracy to get resources otherwise. I doubt the luxuries would have been for the common man, yeah. Trade from elsewhere would have been expensive in the past, as materials moved along the supply line from trader to trader.
Yeah. It doesn't help that so few people own the media. I've noticed that they keep overplaying things, things are less subtle now.
I think you are right there. There were times where they would rely on looting and piracy to get resources otherwise. I doubt the luxuries would have been for the common man, yeah. Trade from elsewhere would have been expensive in the past, as materials moved along the supply line from trader to trader.
@sim @Leyonhjelm @7 @Arkana @Intramuros_ @MK2boogaloo @clayvaulin @hrast @skells @tarperfume
I'm thinking that Musk taking over birdsite is an effort to get people back to corporate media.
As it is now trust in mass media is very low and corporate social media are bleeding users for years now due to tranny moderation stifling creativity and fun.
I'm thinking that Musk taking over birdsite is an effort to get people back to corporate media.
As it is now trust in mass media is very low and corporate social media are bleeding users for years now due to tranny moderation stifling creativity and fun.
@laurel
I think Musk is causing a lot of interesting shake-up but I don't think the trust is going to return.
@Arkana @7 @MK2boogaloo @clayvaulin @hrast @Intramuros_ @skells @tarperfume @sim
I think Musk is causing a lot of interesting shake-up but I don't think the trust is going to return.
@Arkana @7 @MK2boogaloo @clayvaulin @hrast @Intramuros_ @skells @tarperfume @sim
@laurel @Arkana @7 @MK2boogaloo @clayvaulin @hrast @Intramuros_ @skells @tarperfume @Leyonhjelm
Twitter is a corporate containment site. A wealthy white african isn't going to get me to go back there. They killed all loyalty I had to them.
Twitter is a corporate containment site. A wealthy white african isn't going to get me to go back there. They killed all loyalty I had to them.
@sim
I never liked birdshite to begin with
@Arkana @7 @MK2boogaloo @clayvaulin @laurel @hrast @Intramuros_ @skells @tarperfume
I never liked birdshite to begin with
@Arkana @7 @MK2boogaloo @clayvaulin @laurel @hrast @Intramuros_ @skells @tarperfume
@Leyonhjelm @Arkana @7 @MK2boogaloo @clayvaulin @laurel @hrast @Intramuros_ @skells @tarperfume That's fortunate. I wish that I never liked it. I felt miserable there.
@sim
food was especially needed in times of war (even for cities that didnt need it normally) since raids to take grain and burn fields were common, better to have steady shipments from overseas than hope you can capture enough grain to make up for the losses. the athenians were more reliant on trade in general, possibly because of the land around them but definitely related to their control of the sea.
@Leyonhjelm @7 @Arkana @Intramuros_ @MK2boogaloo @hrast @laurel @skells @tarperfume
food was especially needed in times of war (even for cities that didnt need it normally) since raids to take grain and burn fields were common, better to have steady shipments from overseas than hope you can capture enough grain to make up for the losses. the athenians were more reliant on trade in general, possibly because of the land around them but definitely related to their control of the sea.
@Leyonhjelm @7 @Arkana @Intramuros_ @MK2boogaloo @hrast @laurel @skells @tarperfume
@clayvaulin @Arkana @7 @MK2boogaloo @laurel @hrast @Intramuros_ @skells @tarperfume @Leyonhjelm Oh yeah, the raiding that took place during times of war is a great point in favour of needing trade. It can be quite unpredictable what might happen so it is good to have a steady supply of what you might need.
@clayvaulin @sim @7 @Arkana @Intramuros_ @Leyonhjelm @hrast @laurel @skells @tarperfume oh you wanted to join the book club?
@sim @clayvaulin @7 @Arkana @Intramuros_ @Leyonhjelm @hrast @laurel @skells @tarperfume you finished it already? 
I will finish it tomorrow.
I will finish it tomorrow.
@MK2boogaloo @Arkana @7 @clayvaulin @laurel @hrast @Intramuros_ @skells @tarperfume @Leyonhjelm Only the first part, I still haven't read the second part so I'm behind on the intended target.
@sim @clayvaulin @7 @Arkana @Intramuros_ @Leyonhjelm @MK2boogaloo @hrast @skells @tarperfume
I'm pretty close to finishing book 1
I'm pretty close to finishing book 1
@laurel @Arkana @7 @MK2boogaloo @clayvaulin @hrast @Intramuros_ @skells @tarperfume @Leyonhjelm That's cool. We should be able to discuss book I soon. I'll be busy for the weekend though, so I might have to wait for after it. Hopefully I won't be so sick then.
@sim @Arkana @7 @clayvaulin @laurel @MK2boogaloo @hrast @Intramuros_ @tarperfume @Leyonhjelm the word barbarian was coined in this time, it means anyone who didn't speak Greek, so unless the translator is way off the reservation it probably means mercs/auxiliaries from elsewhere on the Mediterranean, perhaps Phoenicians or Persians
@skells @Arkana @7 @clayvaulin @laurel @MK2boogaloo @hrast @Intramuros_ @tarperfume @Leyonhjelm Yeah, that makes sense. Interesting how the language has evolved over time in this way, with words that we recognise today but that meant something slightly different.
@sim
it came from non-greek languages sounding like "bar bar bar bar" to greeks, kind of like if "ching chong" became the normal word for asians
@skells @7 @Arkana @Intramuros_ @Leyonhjelm @MK2boogaloo @hrast @laurel @tarperfume
it came from non-greek languages sounding like "bar bar bar bar" to greeks, kind of like if "ching chong" became the normal word for asians
@skells @7 @Arkana @Intramuros_ @Leyonhjelm @MK2boogaloo @hrast @laurel @tarperfume
@clayvaulin
>kind of like if "ching chong" became the normal word for asians
Are you implying it's not?
@Arkana @7 @MK2boogaloo @laurel @hrast @Intramuros_ @skells @tarperfume @sim
>kind of like if "ching chong" became the normal word for asians
Are you implying it's not?
@Arkana @7 @MK2boogaloo @laurel @hrast @Intramuros_ @skells @tarperfume @sim
@clayvaulin @sim @7 @Arkana @Intramuros_ @Leyonhjelm @MK2boogaloo @hrast @laurel @skells @tarperfume something exactly that happened in Russian: the Russian word for German is немец , 'nemets', which
https://etymologeek.com/rus/%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%86
derives from 'Dumb, mute, unclear or incomprehensible speaker, muttering, mammering'
Russian has proper names for other European ethnics, but Germans are "lol barbarian"
https://etymologeek.com/rus/%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%86
derives from 'Dumb, mute, unclear or incomprehensible speaker, muttering, mammering'
Russian has proper names for other European ethnics, but Germans are "lol barbarian"
