Anything of value will be beset by greedy assholes trying to take control and use it for their own selfish reasons. Democratic governments require their people to inform themselves and work together to prevent this from happening. #LiberalValues
I just doubt that private/home schools will do a better job on the civics & liberal arts education aspect than what we have now. I'm biased but the people who doubt the ability of democracy to work, who question how much others actually care about the public interest...I don't see them as likely to instill a concept of civic virtue. Won't they lean towards tribalism? Won't capitalism take over? We have to protect education from greedy assholes. Privatizing doesn't tend to do that.
Decentralize everything. Let the schools compete. Let parents choose the right education.
"Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself." - Milton Friedman
> We have to protect education from greedy assholes.
You mean like teaher unions taking full pay bit refusing to return to school and screwing over poor kids while private schools are not?
yes, them too. I've been bitching about the Chicago Teachers Union here.
@wjmaggos @Atlas if actual capitalism takes over, competitive forces will punish & eliminate greedy assholes who don't serve the market. In the current government run de facto monopoly, there is practically zero chance for this. As with all government, bad performance gets rewarded & promoted, not boycotted.
I think markets do a ton of good under restraints supplemented with public goods, but then you also need to keep governments from going too far.
If a free market did happen and worked out awesome, what would then prevent somebody from corrupting it? No matter what, you've gotta have a public educated (and engaged) enough to think through problems and possible solutions and likely outcomes etc.
And no businesses really want critical thinking customers...
@wjmaggos @Atlas nothing corrupts like government. Businesses not wanting critical thinking customers is a blanket statement I don't agree with. Even if there is a public interest in people being educated, which is a collectivist concept & "the public" is an abstraction which doesn't tangibly exist, public education is a COMPLETE failure. It's also not its purpose, just look at where it came from.
most people are good but a few are shit and there's always lots of bad incentives. those problems apply to government and markets. government is as good as we force it to be. businesses owned by good people are great, as long as they don't succumb to bad incentives. with enough uncritical thinkers out there (and a lack of good government oversight), business owners who are willing to lie, cheat, steal get ahead.
that's my math.
I did not say that. They are very different processes. I think free exchange is great but it's also not a magic elixir for all that ails us. We need both and a well educated public makes both function better. But a soda company doesn't want us to understand nutrition. Facebook doesn't want us to understand the value of decentralized networks. You don't want them to have any kind of business relationship with the lowest bidder for most people's private education provider.
In america people actively seek out private education. If you could find the data I would expect the students to be better prepared from private schools, especially since public schools are so awful
The premise of your argument means everything is better run by the government.
Based on your logoc, why shouldn't government run our groceries?
@Atlas @wjmaggos @SirFahrenheit This statistic is probably true because private schools cost money so families who go there are families with money and having money can make you more prepared
Sarcasm not correctly flagged
You're right and I know. My point was that people flock to them (when they aren't forced to be awful by teacher unions) just because they are better, but more importantly, a choice.
Just another example of why competition is vital. With no reason to be better, you get our public schools
@valleyforge @SirFahrenheit @wjmaggos
@leyonhjelm
@Atlas @SirFahrenheit @valleyforge
@Agni
everything depends on the pressures to do better & what better means to the customer/voter. in a society, we're affected by the education of those around us. in an education marketplace, parents may choose poorly.
markets do a great job providing things like groceries when there's lots of competition. government wouldn't because voters wouldn't/couldn't oversee that process in enough detail to make good policy.
not all goods are private.
parents may choose poorly
Parents are people. Government is people. The two are the same.
“If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good?
Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind?” ― @bastiat
@Atlas @Agni @leyonhjelm @valleyforge @wjmaggos parents may choose poorly
According to whose criteria? Again, nobody owns them other than themselves, so nobody has the right to make decisions for them. It's their responsibility. One is free to persuade them to make a better decision, but not coerce. It is an arrogant position to take that any person knows what is best for others, even if we assume benevolence.
@SirFahrenheit
@Atlas @Agni @leyonhjelm @valleyforge
I agree that this is a really difficult problem. I should have also mentioned that in things like groceries, choice is king and competitive markets allow for that better than government ever could. But if we want a thriving society, there's some basic skills we want the people around us to have. I want to believe every parent would choose to spend their resources (assuming they have them) on teaching these to their kids, but some wouldn't.
> I want to believe every parent would choose to spend their resources (assuming they have them) on teaching these to their kids, but some wouldn't.
That's why you do a voucher system where the funding isn't given to the parents, it follows the child to the school
@SirFahrenheit @Agni @leyonhjelm @valleyforge
Cutting home school out of the pie is unreasonable.
@wjmaggos @Agni @SirFahrenheit @valleyforge
@wjmaggos @Atlas @Agni @leyonhjelm @valleyforge part of what's making this problem difficult for you is you are avoiding the issue of self ownership. Specifically, that it is not compatible with your thriving society goal. This is the collectivist problem. It necessarily & fatally conflicts with individualism, i.e., freedom. In the long run, it also fatally conflicts with a thriving society, see current world.
@leyonhjelm @Atlas @Agni @wjmaggos @valleyforge I know it's not yours.
@leyonhjelm
@Atlas @Agni @SirFahrenheit @valleyforge
Freedom! vs thriving society is probably the core divide. I don't think our current world is that bad. I think absolutes will lead to tradeoffs you're not considering. I think compromises are the best we can hope for. Mixed economies, democracy with minority interest protections. We get better with more and better citizenship. More attention to shit that matters, more conversations with people we disagree with, more VfV funding of journalism.
>Freedom! vs thriving society is probably the core divide
Only when you're a libertarian that generalizes everything to total abstraction, I think. Please untag.
That was an extremely idiotic post and you should apologise to everyone who saw it.
@Atlas @Agni @SirFahrenheit @valleyforge
@wjmaggos @leyonhjelm @Atlas @Agni @SirFahrenheit @valleyforge
I think our current world is very bad.
The question when driving is not where you are now, but what your inertia will carry you into.
@amerika @leyonhjelm @Atlas @Agni @SirFahrenheit @valleyforge
is there another time you'd rather be born into, without controlling for location, status or background?
@wjmaggos @leyonhjelm @Atlas @Agni @SirFahrenheit @valleyforge
Conservatives do not buy into the linear view of history...
I would prefer not to live in a dying civilization.
>"Please untag."
> Is not untagged
Why must I filter?
missed it, sorry.
He's trying to trap you into some Rawls bullshit, and not doing a great job of it.
@wjmaggos @Atlas @Agni @SirFahrenheit @valleyforge
@leyonhjelm @Atlas @Agni @wjmaggos @SirFahrenheit @valleyforge
In fairness, he comes from the Left, and that is a core part of their thinking: would you adopt a social order without knowing your place in it?
There's two sane answers:
1. My place in any system is determined by my abilities
2. I'd rather be a peasant in a rising society than a king in a failing one
@amerika @leyonhjelm @Atlas @SirFahrenheit @valleyforge
I untagged Agni as requested.
I can't compare with your imagined futures. I do care more about how most people live than the lives of the exceptional people.
the poorer you are, what you want out of life is most restricted by what you can't afford. the more money you make, the more it becomes limited by law.
@wjmaggos @leyonhjelm @Atlas @SirFahrenheit @valleyforge
I am less concerned with money than realism and competence.
Human solipsism is our eternal enemy.
The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
Exceptional people are important because they are competent. Without them, bad stuff follows, including but not limited to poverty.
I do not believe leftist leaders have good intentions to begin with. I think most of the people who support them think they do, though.
@wjmaggos @Atlas @SirFahrenheit @valleyforge
"But if we want a thriving society, there's some basic skills we want the people around us to have."
But, if you consider for a moment, those that do not want to be enslaved by the "basic skills we want" also don't want THAT society? Ya know, because a lot of people don't like being told what to do, and just want to be left alone.
But, that also goes against your "mandatory service" slavery points, so how do you plan to keep the slaves in your "thriving society" in line?
That's what it comes down to, doesn't it? You want a society, built on slavery, because, hey, it has worked in the past!
Fun shit here, this is epicly misguided. Let me guess, you're under 40, and went to public schools?
@Coyote @SirFahrenheit @wjmaggos @Agni @leyonhjelm @Atlas
Ask him about that I was just commenting on the slavery thing
@Coyote
@SirFahrenheit @Agni @valleyforge @leyonhjelm @Atlas
I'm 42 and went to public schools. Our Constitution has allowed for the draft in the past. What makes mandatory service closer to slavery than that was? What I hear from people on the right these days is a desire for something close to ANCAPistan while simultaneously claiming to be the only true defenders of the Constitution. And somehow my defense of what I think are Enlightenment principles, gets spun as Marxism.
"What I hear from people on the right these days"
My mistake, I thought I was part of the conversation too. I guess not, just keep strawman'ing away, don't let me stop you.
@Coyote
@SirFahrenheit @Agni @valleyforge @leyonhjelm @Atlas
Please tell me some of what you believe. In a separate conversation if you want. Or you're welcome on my podcast. Live, no edits so no need to worry I'd take you out of context etc.
"Please tell me some of what you believe."
How about this? As clear as I can put it.
== Fuck off, none of your business. ==
That's it, that's my belief. I'll engage in an intelligent conversation about whatever you want, but this is not one. And, if you want to know WHAT I believe, refer to the above.
I'll defend my right to not tell you as much as your right to spew strawman bullshit. But it doesn't mean I have to tell you my beliefs, nor does it mean I have to "respect" yours.
LOL he tried to get me to come on hispodcast and then proceeded on here to demonstrate bad faith. But if you did I bet it'd be funny.
@Coyote @SirFahrenheit @Agni @valleyforge @Atlas
@leyonhjelm
@Atlas @Agni @SirFahrenheit @valleyforge @Coyote
how? You have both called me an idiot multiple times, if indirectly. Perhaps I am, perhaps we misunderstand each other, perhaps you're trolling. I am exceedingly transparent. Whatever wrongs I have done, I hope that others might take a charitable view and see them as unintentional.
I still think you're an idiot, but my argument has never hinged on that. That's the difference between an insult and an ad hominem logical fallacy.
@Atlas @Agni @SirFahrenheit @valleyforge @Coyote
I'm going back to read other shit, let me know when this becomes a grown up conversation that's not about "Trump" and "people on the right..."
https://youtu.be/zuQ1vKeGPUo
@Coyote
@SirFahrenheit @Agni @valleyforge @leyonhjelm @Atlas
I'm a person on the left. I think we all naturally lean one way or the other. It's not an insult. Trump was brought up in the other conversation because you were talking about January 6th. He's kinda part of that conversation. I didn't say Trump supporters were bad or anything.
@wjmaggos @Coyote @Agni @valleyforge @leyonhjelm @Atlas you're misrepresenting, painting with a broad brush, advertising, whatever you want to call it. I don't defend the constitution at all, nor do I identify left or right.
He can't handle anything he can't put a label on, that's all there is to it.
To me, I think he's acted reasonably & respectfully in this conversation. That's my opinion, so right or wrong I don't care to suppose what's inside his or anyone else's head. I disagree vehemently with what he's saying, yet I'm sticking with his words.
I've interacted with him too many times not to identify his tells. He's not making real arguments, he's trying to generate misphrasings to exploit
@Coyote @Agni @wjmaggos @valleyforge @Atlas
"To me, I think he's acted reasonably & respectfully in this conversation."
100% agree with 50% of that. Respectfully. Totally give him that. I don't, don't even pretend to treat people respectfully. I admire it, appreciate it, but typically don't have enough patients to repeatedly wade into the kiddy pool while someone tells me I forgot to put on my floaties.
Reasonably, depends on how you define the term. Reasonable discourse, to some extent, is there. Reasonable positions based, ah, part ways on that.
@Coyote @Agni @wjmaggos @leyonhjelm @valleyforge @Atlas good points to which I can't really argue. and yes, reasonable discourse is what I meant, not the latter.
Thank you for reading my blog post
@Frankie @Atlas @Agni @leyonhjelm @wjmaggos @SirFahrenheit @Coyote hey I havent done anything
"Everyone in this thread with the exception of Atlas"
I, for a moment thought...
@Atlas_Khan ?!?!
Then looked.
We were arguing with a self-righteous cunt, you can go on with your day.
@Coyote @Agni @Atlas @Frankie @SirFahrenheit @valleyforge @wjmaggos
@Atlas_Khan @Atlas @Agni @Frankie @leyonhjelm @wjmaggos @SirFahrenheit @Coyote It's definitely a good idea to get as far away from this thread as possible
@wjmaggos @leyonhjelm @Atlas @SirFahrenheit @valleyforge @Agni
And not all are sold from a supplier to a consumer.
Some are intangible, like culture and collective sanity. Even genetics.
> private schools cost money
When given the choice, parents flock to charter schools, because at least its a choice
With a voucher system, the money follows the child. Why not let all kids go to those nice private schools? If you think that's unrealistic, look up what state and federal government spends per child. I think youll be surprise and frustrated