I just doubt that private/home schools will do a better job on the civics & liberal arts education aspect than what we have now. I'm biased but the people who doubt the ability of democracy to work, who question how much others actually care about the public interest...I don't see them as likely to instill a concept of civic virtue. Won't they lean towards tribalism? Won't capitalism take over? We have to protect education from greedy assholes. Privatizing doesn't tend to do that.
Decentralize everything. Let the schools compete. Let parents choose the right education.
"Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself." - Milton Friedman
> We have to protect education from greedy assholes.
You mean like teaher unions taking full pay bit refusing to return to school and screwing over poor kids while private schools are not?
yes, them too. I've been bitching about the Chicago Teachers Union here.
@wjmaggos @Atlas if actual capitalism takes over, competitive forces will punish & eliminate greedy assholes who don't serve the market. In the current government run de facto monopoly, there is practically zero chance for this. As with all government, bad performance gets rewarded & promoted, not boycotted.
I think markets do a ton of good under restraints supplemented with public goods, but then you also need to keep governments from going too far.
If a free market did happen and worked out awesome, what would then prevent somebody from corrupting it? No matter what, you've gotta have a public educated (and engaged) enough to think through problems and possible solutions and likely outcomes etc.
And no businesses really want critical thinking customers...
@wjmaggos @Atlas nothing corrupts like government. Businesses not wanting critical thinking customers is a blanket statement I don't agree with. Even if there is a public interest in people being educated, which is a collectivist concept & "the public" is an abstraction which doesn't tangibly exist, public education is a COMPLETE failure. It's also not its purpose, just look at where it came from.
most people are good but a few are shit and there's always lots of bad incentives. those problems apply to government and markets. government is as good as we force it to be. businesses owned by good people are great, as long as they don't succumb to bad incentives. with enough uncritical thinkers out there (and a lack of good government oversight), business owners who are willing to lie, cheat, steal get ahead.
that's my math.
I did not say that. They are very different processes. I think free exchange is great but it's also not a magic elixir for all that ails us. We need both and a well educated public makes both function better. But a soda company doesn't want us to understand nutrition. Facebook doesn't want us to understand the value of decentralized networks. You don't want them to have any kind of business relationship with the lowest bidder for most people's private education provider.
In america people actively seek out private education. If you could find the data I would expect the students to be better prepared from private schools, especially since public schools are so awful
The premise of your argument means everything is better run by the government.
Based on your logoc, why shouldn't government run our groceries?
@Atlas @wjmaggos @SirFahrenheit This statistic is probably true because private schools cost money so families who go there are families with money and having money can make you more prepared
> private schools cost money
When given the choice, parents flock to charter schools, because at least its a choice
With a voucher system, the money follows the child. Why not let all kids go to those nice private schools? If you think that's unrealistic, look up what state and federal government spends per child. I think youll be surprise and frustrated
Just another example of why competition is vital. With no reason to be better, you get our public schools
@valleyforge @SirFahrenheit @wjmaggos
@leyonhjelm
@Atlas @SirFahrenheit @valleyforge
@Agni
everything depends on the pressures to do better & what better means to the customer/voter. in a society, we're affected by the education of those around us. in an education marketplace, parents may choose poorly.
markets do a great job providing things like groceries when there's lots of competition. government wouldn't because voters wouldn't/couldn't oversee that process in enough detail to make good policy.
not all goods are private.
parents may choose poorly
Parents are people. Government is people. The two are the same.
“If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good?
Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind?” ― @bastiat
@Atlas @Agni @leyonhjelm @valleyforge @wjmaggos parents may choose poorly
According to whose criteria? Again, nobody owns them other than themselves, so nobody has the right to make decisions for them. It's their responsibility. One is free to persuade them to make a better decision, but not coerce. It is an arrogant position to take that any person knows what is best for others, even if we assume benevolence.
@SirFahrenheit
@Atlas @Agni @leyonhjelm @valleyforge
I agree that this is a really difficult problem. I should have also mentioned that in things like groceries, choice is king and competitive markets allow for that better than government ever could. But if we want a thriving society, there's some basic skills we want the people around us to have. I want to believe every parent would choose to spend their resources (assuming they have them) on teaching these to their kids, but some wouldn't.
@wjmaggos @Atlas @Agni @leyonhjelm @valleyforge part of what's making this problem difficult for you is you are avoiding the issue of self ownership. Specifically, that it is not compatible with your thriving society goal. This is the collectivist problem. It necessarily & fatally conflicts with individualism, i.e., freedom. In the long run, it also fatally conflicts with a thriving society, see current world.
@leyonhjelm @Atlas @Agni @wjmaggos @valleyforge I know it's not yours.
@leyonhjelm
@Atlas @Agni @SirFahrenheit @valleyforge
Freedom! vs thriving society is probably the core divide. I don't think our current world is that bad. I think absolutes will lead to tradeoffs you're not considering. I think compromises are the best we can hope for. Mixed economies, democracy with minority interest protections. We get better with more and better citizenship. More attention to shit that matters, more conversations with people we disagree with, more VfV funding of journalism.
@wjmaggos @leyonhjelm @Atlas @Agni @SirFahrenheit @valleyforge
I think our current world is very bad.
The question when driving is not where you are now, but what your inertia will carry you into.
@amerika @leyonhjelm @Atlas @Agni @SirFahrenheit @valleyforge
is there another time you'd rather be born into, without controlling for location, status or background?
@wjmaggos @leyonhjelm @Atlas @Agni @SirFahrenheit @valleyforge
Conservatives do not buy into the linear view of history...
I would prefer not to live in a dying civilization.
He's trying to trap you into some Rawls bullshit, and not doing a great job of it.
@wjmaggos @Atlas @Agni @SirFahrenheit @valleyforge
@leyonhjelm @Atlas @Agni @wjmaggos @SirFahrenheit @valleyforge
In fairness, he comes from the Left, and that is a core part of their thinking: would you adopt a social order without knowing your place in it?
There's two sane answers:
1. My place in any system is determined by my abilities
2. I'd rather be a peasant in a rising society than a king in a failing one
@amerika @leyonhjelm @Atlas @SirFahrenheit @valleyforge
I untagged Agni as requested.
I can't compare with your imagined futures. I do care more about how most people live than the lives of the exceptional people.
the poorer you are, what you want out of life is most restricted by what you can't afford. the more money you make, the more it becomes limited by law.
@wjmaggos @leyonhjelm @Atlas @SirFahrenheit @valleyforge
I am less concerned with money than realism and competence.
Human solipsism is our eternal enemy.
The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
Exceptional people are important because they are competent. Without them, bad stuff follows, including but not limited to poverty.
I do not believe leftist leaders have good intentions to begin with. I think most of the people who support them think they do, though.
@wjmaggos @Atlas @SirFahrenheit @valleyforge
@leyonhjelm @Atlas @SirFahrenheit @amerika @valleyforge
do you think the people who support the leftist leaders have good intentions?
throughout history, led by exceptional people, we have accomplished more than realists ever imagined. we have done it with systems that let them kick ass but also help others along the way. history has shown that. maybe more good for all would have been possible with different systems. do you even care about that?
@leyonhjelm @Atlas @SirFahrenheit @amerika @valleyforge
I'm saying in representative governments and markets, exceptional people are given an opportunity to lead (within constraints). that seems to work relatively well. but a sustained elitism outside of merit/competition does not lead to a thriving society, if you care about such things.
I think that's a naive view. It may have worked well enough before universal suffrage, but when the ignorant and misinformed get the vote, I haven't seen any evidence that it continues to work.
@Atlas @SirFahrenheit @amerika @valleyforge
@leyonhjelm @Atlas @wjmaggos @SirFahrenheit @valleyforge
We now have mass opinion as tyranny.
Not a good pattern.
We're going 90 MPH, yes, but into a brick wall.
I think Heinlein may have unintentionally got it right. Service guarantees citizenship may be the right balance.
@Atlas @wjmaggos @SirFahrenheit @valleyforge
@leyonhjelm @Atlas @SirFahrenheit @amerika @valleyforge
"music was great back in my day, but kids these days just don't get it..."
I would like a mandatory service program.
My apologies. "you're"
You're pro-slavery. Just, want to make sure we all get that correct.
@Coyote @SirFahrenheit @wjmaggos @leyonhjelm @amerika @Atlas if the taxes are taken in cash its not slavery but if you work directly for the government then it is slavery
