@rml what's with clojure? how does it compare to scheme?
@joel the joke is that #Clojure is the big corporate success; the scene depicted here is from the matrix, where that character colludes with Agent Smith to attack Neo & co, and asks that he have his memory whiped so that he would have never been exposed to "the truth" of the matrix, prefering to be reincarnated as a film actor where he can live a naive life of success without having to contend with what is "behind the scenes". So in a way, it's a dig at the #jvm ethos.
Clojure is cool tbh, it's like an ergonomics-focused non-standard scheme with Lisp2 syntax, lots of immutable datastructures, and without hygenic macros, first-class-everything, continuations, or the privileging of generality over intuitiveness.
I just still want to program against linux, rather than java. java still feels clunky to me.
@mykhaylo @rml @joel OpenJDK. I have been programming Clojure for years and have never touched Sun/Oracle/Whoever "official" JDK. Great discussion about the tradeoffs of being a hosted langage (though it got a little sidetracked in the middle with "Clojure's useful distinctions") https://clojureverse.org/t/benefits-of-a-hosted-language-vs-the-host-beyond-syntax/9738
@worldsendless @joel @mykhaylo yeah for sure, I've only ever used openjdk tbh.
for me the problem isn't "hosted languages", because honestly I think VMs are one of the most interesting concepts in CS, bringing together compilers, interpreters, and OS concepts. It's my experience with the JDK in particular. It just feels clunky to me (slow startup, kind of slow unless you're doing some serious sh**).
I come from the arts, and tried Quil last summer, and was astonished by how slow it was. I know JDK is generally fast, and thats probably more of a processing.org problem. but I guess most of my experiences with the jvm have been seeing if it can handle the needs of media art installations running openCV, a DMX rig, 3D geometry instancing, lighting... (tried libgdx a few years ago and it wasn't performant enough out of the box), and it always comes up short. People say its changed, but last summer it felt like more of the same (but again, prob a processing.org issue, and a gdx issue)
But Scheme + openGL is pretty fast in my experience.
This also probably boils down to me knowing my way around C but not JVM.
I wanna get into clojure, but I feel like I won't until I get hired to use it, and the clojure job market seems to be looking for experienced web devs, where I fall short.
Since you are from the arts this may seem less relevant to you, but I suspect that the #JVM is the most mature and well-developed virtual machine out there. I know, at least, it has had the most man-hours pumped into it of any of them, with decades of very good programmers. Now things like Graal make it blindingly fast for many products
