@freemo @CCoinTradingIdeas
No you are totally wrong. Are you sere you studied this at school?
Clearly in einstins scenerio you MUST have two observers.
One observer is moving and you are considering yourself as stationary, that's Einsteins setup.
He is moving in my frame, thats why I can measure his velocity and position using classical rules.
The time whey things get relative is ONLY when there is a 3 rd object that both observr's are trying to measure, be it a ball or a light beam bouncing between mirrors.
Take away that 3rd object which can be considered to be in my frame, or also considered to be in his frame if he happens to wish to measure from the corner of his carriage,
The whole experiment is conducted as seen from the stationary observer, who has no problem with watching the passage of the vehicle containing the second observer, it ONLY when they both observe the third object, the ball or photon, that the claim of non Galilean relativity is supposed to come into play.
Anything I watch happening before me is automatically in my frame. Its not a special relativity frame, as the guy in the carriage can clearly see me as well, and we both measure the same Galilean distances and velocity between us.
It ONLY when that second, moving guy ignores me and tries to measure that photon, that''s where SR is supposed to be beginning.
So because light is never affected by anyone's frame, its always C, then light cant be relative to anyone's frame, its never able to change in velocity, its totally independent of frames, for light its as if no frames of reference exist.
Use rational thought and sound logic here, If two frames occupants agree that their frames are different, but they both get the same value for light speed, relative to their frames, then clearly they are wrong in assuming that the light is relative to frames. Its absolute, and apparently it s the only thing in the universe that is absolute.
Frames are relative never absolute, so how can you possible think that light can be absolute and not absolute at the same time?
So my statement, ""Relativity is only applicable to something that is MOVING inside a differently (moving) frame than the observer."" and the light is in my frame, and by measuring it as velocity c, it is proof that its in my frame.
And the carriage containing the other observer is also in my frame, as is the photon inside the carriage, all in my frame.
BUT its the observation of that photon in the carriage made by the second, moving observer, that einstein claims changes the universe. I just wish he would take a look outside, and stop measuring from the corner of his carriage, then the world of physics cane settle down again..
So for the moving guy, he observes something different, if he blots out the background outside his carriage, otherwise no, he sees nothing different at all.
And BECAUSE he still gets lights velocity as c, even though his carriage is moving, and its the same photon we are both measuring... then clearly the photon is not obeying the laws of anyone's relativity, not Galelio's or einstein's.
Light is acting with total indifference to all imaginary ""frames of reference"".
And that's all reference frames are, imaginary constructs that are supposed to help men make measurements when things are in motion.
Nature does not conform to mans imaginary constructs, its our constructs that must try to mimic reality, and SR is just failing to do that.
Light is never relative to my frame, to your frame or einsteins frame. Other wise you can never explain how we all get velocity of c irrespective of our motion relative to the light, or even if we turn 180 degrees and head into the light we STILL get c.
Therefore light is never relative to any frame. Its absolute. Frames are not, they are localized and relative to each other.
( actually light is relative to the medium in which it is propagating.) As Ive said before.
🇳🇱
Yes im sure...
The frame of reference is the observer not the thing he observers.
By your deformed logic everything is a single frame of reference so long as the observer can saee it, including the other observer.
Thats not how it works and its a reflection of just how grossly uneducated you are.
I will not continue to argue with someone willfully stupid.
Anything i see that i can measure is in my frame. The frame is NOT an observer, We dont need any observers, we can imagine measuring from the platform, and also imagine the result when measuring from the corner of the moving carriage, and in fact thats exactly what einstein did with his thought experiment, he assumed the position of an absolute observer capable of seeing everything from an absolute preferred frame. If he did not do this, we would still be looking for a guy in a carriage to get his measurements, cause we cant figure out this stuff from only our frame,.....
Thats why i can measure the velocity of a ball inside a carriage that the carriage observer has just tossed toward the front of the carriage.
So you are wrong here. Arnt you?
If he chooses to measure relative to the carriage or relative to where im standing, thats his business, but the ball wont change its motion and time wont shrink if he chooses the former or the latter.
You can go away now, you are either a troll or an idiot with a big ego. I have time for neither
@freemo, as I told you before, you do not understand the thought experiments and what frame means in this context.
I must say, you like mental gymnastics but because you do not understand what the frame of reference actually means, you cant understand the thought experiments... and the rest that follows.
You also seem to treat treat a photon as an ordinary particle (of matter).
@CCoinTradingIdeas @freemo
Whatever, its a cop out to suggest that I cant understand the irrationality of SR's claims.
I dont agree with the whole hypothesis stage by stage, this is NOT the same as not understanding it.
And you speak as if Im the only one that rejects SR.'
There are actually famous scientists that don't accept it.
Anyway, each to his own,
Cheers.
No there are no famous reputable scienctist who reject relativity, not anymore, they used to. But the experiments thatprove it keep pouring in so there are very few left that reject it.
You can disagree all you want, but the fact remains reality proves it to be true. We **must** use relativistic equations to solve tons of seperate problems that cant be solved otherwise. We have proven beyond any doubt that the equations for relativity dictate the results they claim to.
So any issue you have with the hypothesis is on your lack of understanding, nothing more.
@freemo @CCoinTradingIdeas
Of course there are. Trouble is that any scientist that rejects einstein is instantly labeled as a non reputable scientist.
Dr Louis Essen inventor of an atomic clock is one.
I can dig around and make a reasonable list, but it does no good.
The genius Tesla was another notable scientist.
Ron Hatch who hols many patents of the GPS system , rejects SR and the the claim that its used to adjust the satellite clocks on which he worked.
There are many more, but i need to go read up.. not worth the effort.
Also tesla was not a scientist. He never published a single peer reviewed paper in any topic, not even his focus of electromagnetism. He mostly was a tinkerer, he would hack things together and through trial and error find things to work. He even developed a few important insights and inventions.
He was an inventor, and a reputable one, he wasnt a science, and he was a complete quak when he tried and as such failed to accomplish many of his goals.
@freemo @CCoinTradingIdeas
Dont rubbish Tesla, a man who developed AC power, and the induction motor, which is still essential in industry today.
He did not need to publish and papers to be a sicientist. A scientist is someone who studies the natural world, and endeavors to understand it. Thats all. Im a scinetist. Im just not interested or able to try to develop any new theories of how stuff works, Im just interested in learning about what others have said, and why they thought that.
A professional scientists is not so trustworthy as they have pressures that can and do direct their research and results directly. Science is a business.
I'm done with you, you were leaving, go...
When you have a change in attitude and a genuine desire to learn reach out to me. Until then, work on an attitude readjustment.
@freemo @CCoinTradingIdeas
Im not returning to plead with you to teach me anything. You suffer from the Dunning Kruger effect, thinking that you are smarter than you obviously are. It happens to educated people as easily as to non educated people. Common sense however is not that common.
What you have said so far is not rational. You have no understanding that the imaginary frames of reference cant possibly cause any physical changes in matter.
This is a irrational belief that is more akin to superstition than physics. Then you invent a mythical world of math mumbo jumbo to support your delusions about matter shrinking when there is no demonstration that this can happen.
You clock changed due to physical forces, it was not "Time" that changed.
You cant show that distance shrinks with speed, and you discarded the theories third claim that Mass increases because that was just too stupid for anyone to accept, that's why all the complicated twisting of logic to skip from Mass to energy.
If you had anything rational and sensible to say, I would be willing to listen to you, but so far you just repeat all the errors of thought that Einsteins came up with.
Physical matter does not morph simply because someone watched another person moving.
If he does not watch, then there is no shrinking..
This is stupid. You dont understand that frames do NOT mean that something shrinks with speed, but is only measurable by someone else.
Say something reasonable and Ill listen. I'm not into magic.
You have done away with two of the three claims of Einsrtein, (effects on Mass and Distance, no proof) so are only left with tine, which cant shrink because its a concept.
Physical Clocks can and do change under differing physical conditions and thats what you measured.
The difference was according to the lorentz translation which strangely enough requires an absolute frame of reference. Lorentz invented, dreamed up, imagined his equation to explain how M&M could get a null result but there could still be an aether, the absolute frame of reference for light.
@CCoinTradingIdeas @freemo
You, and 100 experts have done their best to explain frames to me and everyone else, they have failed to present a rational explanation how observation can cause a physical change.
Or ore you now denying that it can cause a physical change in matter?
You are so contrary in your statements, its hard to pin you down to one claim.
@zeccano Just because you have failed to be intelligent enough to understand 100 people doesnt mean the idea is flawed.
In fact when that many trained professionals try to explain something to you, and you admit you dont even know the basic math needed to understand it int he first place, it should be obvious to even the most inept of us, that it is the result of your own inability to understand, and not their inability to explain it.
Especially considering these are ideas we use to accomplish real world effects on a daily basis and have seen in countless experiments to be true.
@freemo @CCoinTradingIdeas
One of us does not understand reference frames, its you.
Do reference frames alter matter or not?
Yes or no.
Its NO, a different perspective on an event involving matter CAN NEVER play any part in the event. NOTHING can be changing, not mass, distance or time.
Why cant you get this obvious fact through that stubborn head of yours?
It alters matter in your own reference frame observing something move through it. Those effects (like length constriction) would not be observed in the reference frame of the moving object (to it you are the on constricted).
It is very real from the observed reference frame.
how many times do I need to tell you to go away with this ignorant nonsense.
Go talk to the flat earthers that you usually talk to and have them agree with you.
@freemo @CCoinTradingIdeas
Your explanation is exactly as sensible as the theory of the Flat Earth.
You statement, rephrased is:
"" Physical matter actually changes size and Weight for someone who watches anything moving".
This is EXACTLY what you said, in plain English for anyone to follow. Its more stupid than Flat Earth theory.
Your task is now to explain HOW this could be remotely possible? What force is acting on the matter, shrinking it in one direction but not any other, whilst simultaneously causing it to get heavier at the same time? (we are on Earth, where mass is the same measurement as weight)
Please go ahead, explain, this will be interesting.
You just CANT rationally explain what I asked in my last question.
And please STOP saying that length contraction or Mass increase has ever been observed.
And Time is not a thing, its a concept, so your fiddling with clocks proves NOTHING about TIME.
SO, NOT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE!
Length contraction has been observed indirectly.
Mass increase has been observed directly
But of course you wouldnt know that because even with 100 other people trying to explain this to you (according to you) you never managed to learn even the basic facts;
This is why I refuse to talk to you. If you are to lost in your own dogma to understand these basic concepts, I wont waste my time on you.
You have serious mental health problems, that much is clear, part of which is projecting your mental health issues onto others. I feel sorry for you, I'm not mad at you, but I also cant help you which is why I ask again, util you are in a healthy mind set to learn something, please leave me alone.
I agree. I am on the verge of blocking him entierly. or just ignoring him.
Reason i dont is i do have some hope he can recover from his mental probems and might come back to want to learn. I'd imagine given the way he behaves there arent many teachers left who would talk to him. I want him to know that, should he get his act together, he can still reach out to me for answers and learning, just not in his current mental state.
I agree i am giving him **far** more credit than he probably deserves and at this point should just stop responding all together..
@Oblivia @CCoinTradingIdeas @zeccano Could be. Though I'd imagine the type of people that follow me arent very likely to follow him. But that sounds reasonable.
Though the weird part is he started an account on QOTO a new account, specifically for this conversation. So not sure how that would benefit him on whatever his actual account is out there.
Maybe he wants to establish a following here on QOTO. Sad thing is, I reboost most qoto users who are respectful and have something interesting to talk about. So he could have gotten it through much more effective means.
That is possible. I recently had to put a flat earther in his place and its entierly possible this is a sock pocket of that account.
I do agree that it just sounds like he is trying to lead me on though. Its hard to beleive anyone this clueless and cocksure could really exist. Maybe it is all just some troll.
Either way I'm at the point where im going to ignore him unless he wises up and gets his wits about him.
He literally has 2 followers, it is unlikely the science professionals here or on the fediverse will follow him. So he will just be talking to emptiness and probably go away. But ill keep an eye on him and if there is a need to suspend or silence his account it may come to that.
@freemo @Oblivia @CCoinTradingIdeas
Try answering the questions as you have all the understanding.
My last few posts show that none of what you claim can be real.
Not mass of light, not matter changing because someone is watching, and not genuine observational evidence.
It astounds me how so many people can get so confused that they actually believe this crap and pass it off as the most important discovery in science!
I think it is his terminology for relativistic mass and length constriction.
@freemo @CCoinTradingIdeas @Oblivia
Ok wise guy, define mass and length. Are there two or more definitions or meaning in physics for these terms?
Already told you, I'm not talking to you until you appear capable of understand. At the moment you are not mentally fit.
@freemo @CCoinTradingIdeas @Oblivia
Brilliant, you make no rational statements at all, but Im the person with the problem?
Sounds like you are just stuck for a decent reply.
Admit it, you cant explain rationally what I asked. Or dont bother, just give me a link to a document that has already answered these questions, there you don't need to get involved. And I don't need to keep asking you.
Several documents links are also fine, variety is the spice of life.
@CCoinTradingIdeas @freemo @Oblivia "
Needs to be better than you last citation. Ill read. thanks. Later.
@CCoinTradingIdeas @freemo @Oblivia
You are truly an idiot.
How does pointing me at the exact same stuff Im criticizing answer my question that was not contained in the material in the first place?
You dont even know what a question is, or what a suitable answer might be.
@CCoinTradingIdeas @freemo @Oblivia
Einstins said as the conclusion to his 1905 paper that matter shrinks, and it gets heavier. and time also slows, thats where.
@freemo @Oblivia @CCoinTradingIdeas
Make rational claims and Ill agree with you 100%.
Ive many times explained why your claims are irrational, but you just cant understand simple rational, logical analysis of conjecture..'and conjecture is all you have with einsteins ideas.'
Ive just asked for an explanation of to how an observation can make a physical change in solid matter, and you have no answer.
How am I supposed to believe you?
Cite the references for observation of mass increase, I bet a million dollars its to do with some sub atomic particle in a collider, which is hardly proof of anything. It necessarily involves a lot of assumptions and subjective intepretations.
Indirect observation of length contraction is not observation at all, it is rejected as experimental evidence for such an important principal of physics, we must have direct verifiable length contraction.
@CCoinTradingIdeas @freemo
Good, thank, Ill read this and get back to you.
Its a bit weird that I need to ask a mathematician about a physics question, about the theory of a Physicist. I felt that Einsteins own explanation was clear and concise and simple enough to understand, but oh well, ill go do some more reading....
I appreciate the effort but I think its clear after 7 days he struggles to understand the basics no matter how it is explained to him. Remember he refuses to learn both math and experimental evidence by his own admission.
No amount of information is likely to help him.
I am not struggling with this dickhead.
Its you that are to into the dogma that you cant think straight, ever thought of that?
@CCoinTradingIdeas @freemo
OK, read it enough to see where the trickery is attempted for gullible people.
The question is only pertaining to the theory of special Relativity, but this weak attempt to explain away the major problems with special relativity by calling up an equally ridiculous theory of General Relativity which did not arrive on the scent until 10 years after the theory of Special Relativity was a done deal.
So Ill ignore this explanation. Until we solve the issues of SR , using the theory of SR to explain itself. Which is MUST be able to do, or its not a valid theory.
Einsteins theory of SR was claimed to be proven beyond doubt before the theory of GR was presented.
So exactly how does watching something make it shrink lengthwise in the direction of motion, ans also gain weight?
Explain what is occurring to the matter that can account for this.
(anyway, saying that it spacetime does not solve this problem, same question, how does spacetime manage to change matter in that way?)
The simple fact is that if YOU "got it" then it would not be so difficult for you to explain the answers to my last few basic questions, but Ive so far had not one attempt by you are anyone else to reveal the big secret.
I suggest that its more likely that you dont "got it" yourself. Or I would have some statements from you in response to my question. It like getting blood for a stone talking got you guys.
"we are right, but we are not telling!
Either explain, or cite a document that does it please.
Given the answers arent difficult, I gave you answers for a week straight.
The issue is simply that you are incapable or unwilling to understand those answers even when they are clear and easy to follow for others.
You dont give up so now you are being ignored, and will continue to do so.
It all stems from your attitude of assuming you are right and that SR is bullshit and doing whateve rmental gymnastics, no matter how absurd or contrary to what we see. In the end your psychosis is so far gone that me and others refuse to go in an endless circle with you and be the victim of your own mental disorder.
If and when the time comes you go away and get some help and if you come back and want to learn, I will be here. Until then you will be ignored. You have more than enough information from this past week to understand the answer if you were able.
And Ive explained in very easy terms, why those answers fail to actually me meaningful.
Giving AN answer is not the same as being correct.
I still have not got the confirmation of even the simplest concept from you, "does observation ACTUALLY physically change matter, its length and its mass?"
Or does it only SEEM like something changed, in the same way that a guy of LSD with imaging things are different?
Is it the first or the second?
Im never grovelling to anyone to get information. Make sense and Ill go along with you, but if I find fault and you are unable to understand that its a fault, then you have a mental problem, unless you can respond to the claimed fault.
You cant or wont do this step.
@CCoinTradingIdeas @freemo
This is not a link to any answer to my question.
tinyurl.com/wtkc5mu
Its a repeat of the same old worn out material that prompted me to ask questions.
I warned you if you continue to tag him after he told you not to your account will be suspended. I will now silence your account as a temporary measure. One more time and it will be an irreversible suspension.
kiwifarms.cc admins don't mute accounts for arguing, you should make an account over here so you don't have to deal with Freemo's pacifistic bullshit.
@Curarpikt
He wasnt muted for arguing. He was mited for tagging people when repeatidly asked not to do so. We have one important rule and that is if someone asks you to leave them alone, you do so.
I agree he should join kiwifarms.cc instead of QOTO, i think his personality would be a great fit for that group.
@zeccano
OK, I am jumping into this bucket of shit for one more time :)
I think we all have made a huge mistake - assuming you understand the basics.
You do not.
Back to square 1
1) frame of reference.
If you do not get this, it's all a blur.
If you go off tangent again, it over and I am done.
I silenced his account, if you wish to see his posts youd need to follow him moving forward. No one else but me can see his posts now.
Last time.
Ill rephrase my question.
In my frame of reference does a moving object get more massive and grow shorter when its moving, through or in my frame of reference? Is that aclear question now?
@zeccano, freemo has told you several times to get acquainted with the basics and so have I. You wont for some reason.
The time you have wasted arguing, you should have spent learning the basics. This is why this conversation is going nowhere.
I gave you a link that explains nicely the time dilation and length contraction. What do you do? You start whining about why it's on math site and then come back with some idiotic conspiracy theory how it's a trick to woo gullible people. WTF man?
Get with the fucking program of fuck off. It's your problem, you cant/wont understand the basics. With out the basics, there is no advanced stuff.
No foundation => no house => no roof
Look, try hard to understand this.
Ive read every important bit of information on SR. Ive been over all the posted university lectures that step through SR by the best physicists, I find errors in all the material, i have questions Ive tried to find answers for, but I just get ignored when I expect to get rational answers, as Im not interested in any old answer.
No one, not you are any one else ive asked has even tried to explain what Ive asked.
Does mass, length actually change simply because someone watches it, according to einsteins paper, ? or not?
Watching videos isnt enough. You dont know even the basic math, you yourself have said so. You can watch videos until you are blue in the face, that isnt enough because you dont have the mental tools with which to understand it.
Now he asked you not to tag him, that is officially considered harassment. If you continue to tag him or others who have asked you not to then you will have your account suspended, this is the last warning i will give/
Fuck off.
The videos were wall to wall math, I understood all of the math, I just dont like doing math myself. The math is simple enough.
Stop with these lame excuses.
Does mass and length actually change physically just because someone watches an object move?
Yes or no. Einsteins says yes, so I not sure why Im asking you guys.
But if you say yes, then we have problems. If you say no then there is nothing physical about SR, its not physics.
@freemo @CCoinTradingIdeas
So with no real evidence, einsteins theory rests on the sensibility of the hypothesis, and on examination, its irrational.
As a matter of interest,, you caalculated the actual mass of a single photon of average frequency sunlight for me, mathematically perfect. Thanks.
it was 1.2156205e-27 kg per photon.
But experimental evidence PROVES that this is WRONG.
Experiments show no such mass.
If this number were correct, then the Crookes' radiometer would be receiving an appreciable amount of grams per vane, when in sunlight which is directed to only one vane on one side of the vane using optics.
Because practically countless trillions of photons strike the surface the size of that vane, every nanosecond, and although the mass you stated is very small, the combined effect of countless trillions of them per nanosecond equates to probably several KILOGRAMS of mass moving at LIGHT SPEED, having a combined momentum that would EASILY move the vanes, so the vane should spin wildly.
It does not move at all due to photon strike, the slight rotation is attributed to other causes, already proven.
The reason why you got a value for the mass of average sunlight photon is due to the fantasy Constant called Planck Length.
Max was Einstein mate, and einstein was a fool , and fools like each others company.
@zeccano
The difference is that what I describe is what is reality and observed to be true by myself and the whole of the physics community. Flat earthers, not so much.
I have no task other than to ignore you until I beleive investing time into talking to you might result in you learning something.
Once you are capable of learning feel free to reach out to me. Until then I will answer all your questions the same "You dont know what you are talking about, go away"
@CCoinTradingIdeas