Hi @shusha, just read your introduction and found it very interesting.

Let me present myself: I'm can be described in several ways, but for sure I'm father of three wonderful daughters I love most and I'm a hacker.

You can read something about me on my website tesio.it and on my operating system jehanne.io

Why I annoy you, you ask?

In your introduction you mention topics I care a lot: programming as expression (see tesio.it/2019/06/03/what-is-in ), epistemology, data (you find a lot in my site), politics ( see tesio.it/2020/09/03/not_all_ha ) and so on...

I would like to know your take about this: qoto.org/@Vectorfield/10602814

Not much about the attacks against RMS and FSF (unless you want to talk about that too, obviously), but about the epistemic approach that @Vectorfield described and that, as far as I can say, describe quite well the activists I've talked with.

To be fair, they argue that "manifacturing" truths is what the hegemonic class ("the whites", "the males", "the straights"... curiously, never "the rich") do all the time with marketing and all other forms of propaganda, so they perceive themselves as fighting back on the same ground.

They argue that people won't try to understand long explanations or deep and complex models of reality anyway, so trying to argue with facts won't change things for the better.

Yet models that misdescribe reality on purpose, an epistemology not based on the search for truth but in the search for changes, is doomed to be abused by the oppressors who have better means and more resources to meld the public opinion (and even turn it to a weapon to enforce their own interests, as RMS story shows)

Anyway, sorry for this wall of text linking several other wall of texts.

If you'd like to talk about this, I'd like to access your perspective (dialogue is always a way to access and understand perspectives that are preclused to us by our limits).

Otherwise... just let me say nice to meet you! 😉

hey @Shamar, I finally found time to read the thread. phew... first: thanks to @Vectorfield for his exhausting overview of traditions of critical thinking. second: what I observer is a shifting of argument from a very specific problem (sexism in free software communities) to a very distant position of reflection (the history of critical thinking in general). And I belive this is a significant move, an attempt to restore a position of oversight, to escape the messiness of struggle. And I tend to be with Haraway here, and her distrust of what she calls the "god-perspective", the disembodied perspective from above and its claim of oversight, which is normative because it enables this exact shifting of focus away from the struggle, to other discourses, and we end up talking about universalist concepts of truth (like standpoint theory never happened - even in discussing standpoint theory).

And let me put two things straight: the shift away from the struggle is the tendency of the whole thread, and starts well before @Vectorfield and @Shamar joined the discussion. And second: I am not a philosopher, my knowledge of the traditions of thinking is limited, this is why enjoyed the excourse by @Vectorfield very much.

but then for me (as an embodied female in computer culture), it is the struggle that is central. the discussion started with sexism, and not with philosophy. and I would love to find a way back to the struggle, through philosophy, that is not explaining away the struggle as some function in a model of society.

@shusha

As a father of 3 daughters, I think I understand your perspective.

But one of the issues of this whole story is that the struggle you are talking about, has been misdirected toward a man who was not sexist, mysogin or transphobic at all... just weird.

It's a long story, and I do not want to annoy you if you don't care about the details, but well known feminists and transpeople (and even several women that I personally know and know by decades) have either signed the letter in his defence or publicly wrote against this attack to his person.

I could provide you a few link but you find most interesting ones stallmansupport.org/articles-i

You can trust my words or not, but you can easily check that even the attackers have retracted some their accusations to reduce the legal risks for the signers rms-open-letter.github.io/appe

So here is the thing: the alligations against Stallman are false.

And yet, they managed to force him to resign from FSF 2 years ago and now that he is coming back, they raised this new campaign again.

And if you look at the organizations that signed the harrassing letter early, you will notice how many have BigTech among their platinum sponsors (Google in particular)

Since 2013 FSFE (that joined the lynching mob early with their own letter) takes more than 10% (but less than 20%) of its whole income from : fsfe.org/donate/thankgnus.en.h

So ultimately the struggle of women and trans working in IT (and in in particular) has been weaponized to target a single man.

Now I'm happy to stay on the struggle, but here we have to ask which one?

The one strumentalized and weaponized or the one of the victim of such attack?

I'd argue: both!

But in this hatred climate it's very difficult to talk with the people whose suffering has been weaponized.

And this is heart-breaking.
And dangerous, I think.

Because it won't fix problems, but hide them.

Anyway... thanks for your link, I'll read as soon as possible.

And if you want to talk about the struggles of women in tech and how they could be addressed, I'm very interested.

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@shusha

I forgot to say: all of this is why people look for more general explainations of what is going on.

Because in this case, checking sources or looking for evidence or even "following the money" was very easy. And yet, three thousand people joined the mob against a single man.

Which is an autistic hacker, but that doesn't matter much.

Why this happened?
Cui prodest?

Can it be prevented in the future?

It's difficult to look for answers to these questions without going beyond the case in point.

At least for me.

But I'd really welcome you insight about them!

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