If socialism is public ownership of the means of production and capitalism is private ownership of the means of production, then what is “social democracy”, a “mixed economy”? The factory is either owned by the state, or it is not. Where is the middle ground?
What about cooperatives? Why does everyone assume companies have to be either owned by the state or by capitalists who don’t work there?
@Hyolobrika The members of a cooperative are capitalists, in the sense they are a group of private individuals who own the means of production! There are many possible forms of capitalism, defined as private ownership of the means of production (and even more possible forms of a mixed economy).
@interfluidity @Hyolobrika They may be capitalists, but i think the shared ownership between people that have a direct connection to what is produced does make a difference.
If you look at it from the connection to the product perspective, a cooperative is more directly connected than a socialist state owned factory, or rather the people deciding stuff for that factory. Worst case, an uncaring state could easily perform just as bad as a single private owner.
Seems the underlying question is "where do we put power?", and that makes clear why there is little experimentation. Nobody gives up power voluntarily.
@interfluidity @Hyolobrika Hmm, but combinations could exist, if you separate details of how stuff is done from planning.
It's not necessary to have socialism, it could be planned what boundary conditions have to be met (limiting environmental harm, limiting resource usage by how sought after the product is) in a democracy. This would still play with cooperative ownership.
If one wants socialism, since socialism is not one definitive thing set in stone, similar adjustments could be made. But i'd rather retain a vote...
@admitsWrongIfProven @Hyolobrika I think in practice almost all desirable economic forms will be mixed economies. The details of what gets mixed will be very important! Cooperative worker ownership vs passive absentee ownership might be an important dimension within the sphere of privately held firms. I very much agree that we want a democratic state, where we all have a vote, setting the ground rules under which economic units whatever their form must operate.
@admitsWrongIfProven @Hyolobrika I’m not saying ubiquitous cooperative ownership wouldn’t be meaningfully different or couldn’t be much better than contemporary forms of capitalism. It might! I’m just saying it’s also a form quite distinct from what most people mean by and want from socialism.