@cee lysander spooner, Max stirner, Murray Rothbard, sometimes prodhoun
yeah im friends with alotta different kinds of people, anyone who supports decentralisation really.
it's interesting, im friends with both ancaps and ancoms, but u start to see that every individual has kinda got their own philosophy going on.
@Andrii who is a distributist (kinda like mutualism lite)
theres @xianc78 who is a panarchist, then u got the ancap/vonluntarist squad like @icedquinn @shebang @waltercool @top @kerosene
i know @Indigo was an ancap that has read stirner.
@herag and @chillanarchist@liberdon.com who are agorists
then u got social anarchists like @0x520 and @vera
@maksimilian_stepniakov is an eco-nihilist
and @matthew is a libertarian marxist.
all these people are based in my books, and very kind too, love em all
@cee based. haha.. amen and amen. Praise J.R. "Bob" Dobbs! An Agorist-SubGenius at that!
@cee @icedquinn @herag @shebang @kerosene @vera @matthew @0x520 @maksimilian_stepniakov @waltercool @ardaissad @lanodan @Indigo @top @Andrii @Alex Ancap and panarchism are basically the same thing. Any anarcho-capitalist would also be a Panarchist because voluntarily choosing your own government, political, and economic system is all consistent with anarcho-capitalist principles.
I personally think that Panarchism is a much better way to express anarcho-capitalism because it doesn't imply that the free-market capitalist system is the only economic system that could exist and it could get non-capitalists on our side.
@xianc78 whereas the agorist just puffs his weed pipe and says, "Live yer life, bruh, and don't mess with me."
@herag Agorism is more of a strategy rather than an ideology. It was coined by Samuel Konkin III as a way to use black and gray markets to achieve free-market anarchism (not necessarily anarcho-capitalism) by starving the state of it's revenue and creating free-market alternatives to statist institutions.
I support the Agorist strategy but I don't practice it. I'm more of a fan of break-away societies like seasteading.
@xianc78 That is true. i tend to see agorism as something different now than it was when SEK3 started it. It has developed its own culture now and has become something of an ideology in itself, build around that framework/call-to-action.
Well any ancap style system and you are pretty much handing everything to the globalist plutocrats and end up with plutocratic autocracy.
@cee @icedquinn @herag @shebang @kerosene @vera @matthew @0x520 @maksimilian_stepniakov @waltercool @ardaissad @lanodan @Indigo @top @Alex
@Andrii @matthew @ardaissad @herag @Alex @Indigo @maksimilian_stepniakov @vera @0x520 @top @lanodan @kerosene @waltercool @cee @shebang @icedquinn And plutocracy requires a state.
@xianc78 The only real problem I see philosophically with AnCapistan is that humans always tend towards systems of control. I don't know if a true anarchist society could exist long. I think in Iceland they had an anarchist society that maybe lasted about 200 years, and that is a generous figure. Probably more like 100 years, all things considered.
@Andrii @matthew @ardaissad @Alex @Indigo @maksimilian_stepniakov @vera @0x520 @top @lanodan @kerosene @waltercool @cee @shebang @icedquinn
has to be done in perpetuity, and people have proven they are literally incapable of eternal vigilance.Plutocracy just requires rich people, they can hire all the mercenaries they need to make a "state".
@matthew @ardaissad @herag @Alex @Indigo @maksimilian_stepniakov @vera @0x520 @top @lanodan @kerosene @waltercool @cee @shebang @icedquinn
Indigenous north americans managed to keep things largely free.
They had strong anti hoarding values. Also the chiefs were unable to coerce anyone, not even their own children. Punishment for crimes was a Euroasian invention. In North America they would simply pay reparations to the family who experienred loss.
@0x520 @Alex @Indigo @ardaissad @cee @herag @icedquinn @kerosene @lanodan @maksimilian_stepniakov @matthew @shebang @top @vera @waltercool
@Andrii It is similar with the Medieval, pre-Viking era of the Icelanders from what I have studied. I am very interested in these case studies of humanity, to be honest.
Practically, I keep my focus narrowed down to myself and my family, but on a macro scale... these are the things I need to study more.
https://b-ok.cc/book/17583829/0439f3
@Andrii I do very much enjoy Graeber. I will look it up, thank you!
o u guys... cute.
but, if comes down to it, i wont hesitate to slam everyone- left, right and centre.
nah jks, im not that mean.
@Andrii have u talked to @CryptoBlok yet?
theyre a libertarian who has gotten more into distrubitism
Also @lanodan @ardaissad
have u 2 read Kevin Carson before? He's an anarchist without adjectives and he's got some really good essays.
@icedquinn @herag @shebang @kerosene @vera @xianc78 @matthew @0x520 @maksimilian_stepniakov @waltercool @Indigo @top @Alex
@cee @icedquinn @herag @shebang @kerosene @vera @matthew @0x520 @maksimilian_stepniakov @CryptoBlok @waltercool @ardaissad @lanodan @Indigo @top @Andrii @Alex
>Kevin Carson
You mean the one who contributes to C4SS?
@xianc78 @cee @icedquinn @herag @shebang @kerosene @vera @matthew@helladoge.com @0x520 @maksimilian_stepniakov @waltercool @lanodan @Indigo @top @Andrii @Alex actually yes, AnCaps dont impose any economic system.
@xianc78 @cee @icedquinn @herag @shebang @kerosene @vera @matthew @0x520 @maksimilian_stepniakov @ardaissad @lanodan @Indigo @top @Andrii @Alex Panarchism and Voluntaryism aren’t kinda same? Or Panarchism is only related to economy?
While I don’t agree with communism/socialism/democracy, I think it’s fair for people to pick any economic system AS LONG NO ONE IS FORCED.
This also enforce my stance against Democracy. If 99.9% of people vote and decide for Communism / Socialism / Liberalism / Capitalism, is not acceptable to force those 0.1% individuals for something they don’t want.
@waltercool @icedquinn @herag @kerosene @shebang @cee @vera @matthew @0x520 @maksimilian_stepniakov @ardaissad @lanodan @Indigo @top @Andrii @Alex Panarchism is the idea of voluntarily choosing your own government (or no government at all). It was coined by a Belgian botanist, Paul Émile de Puydt back in 1860 but remained relatively obscure due to the fact that he was not a political writer. In recent years, the ideology has been embraced by ancaps/voluntaryists because it's compatible with their principles.
It seems like, "Ok, I'm going to choose the government I want." fine, but what if I want something else, like, you know -- no god damn government. You can't run a government of any kind without coercion so really this is just a mealy mouthed statism with the usual nonsense.
@shebang @icedquinn @herag @kerosene @cee @vera @matthew @0x520 @maksimilian_stepniakov @waltercool @ardaissad @lanodan @Indigo @top @Andrii @Alex Choosing a government will give you benefits that you wouldn't get if you didn't choose said government (access to their schools, utilities, etc).
@shebang @icedquinn @herag @kerosene @cee @vera @matthew @0x520 @maksimilian_stepniakov @waltercool @ardaissad @lanodan @Indigo @top @Andrii @Alex The only difference is that it's all voluntary. If you don't want to be govern and don't care about the benefits you can simply choose to have no government at all.
@shebang @icedquinn @herag @kerosene @cee @vera @matthew @0x520 @maksimilian_stepniakov @waltercool @ardaissad @lanodan @Indigo @top @Andrii @Alex
People are expected to respect others ways of life via the NAP. Logically, Marxists-Leninists can't just take from non-marxists, but they can take from other marxists since they consent to that.
But realistically, I think the communists will just have communes where it's only them and I think the social democrats would do the same. So, yeah the communists would probably keep a distance from everywhere else. I see the capitalists (not necessarily ancaps) having different types of governments in the same space.
sounds like you've come back around to distributism.
Where people have communities with their own micropolities.
@shebang @icedquinn @herag @kerosene @cee @vera @matthew @0x520 @maksimilian_stepniakov @waltercool @ardaissad @lanodan @Indigo @top @Alex
@Andrii @matthew @herag @ardaissad @Alex @Indigo @maksimilian_stepniakov @vera @0x520 @top @lanodan @kerosene @waltercool @cee @shebang @icedquinn Well I haven't looked that much into Distributism. As long as there isn't a centralized state controlling these micropolities, then that would be fine. I might go with libertarian distributist or anarcho-distributist.
I kind of find it strange. Despite being raised Catholic, I've never heard about Distributism until recently. Most Catholics I know tend to be pro-capitalist but are more willing to work out of the kindness of their heart than for profit.
i don't know what people are criticizing half the time when they go on and on about capitalism evil and its like
okay but the adam smith argument is that specialization means more shit for everyone. to which profit is basically there to pay for the opportunity cost of not being able to do the other stuff you wanted
@Andrii @matthew @herag @ardaissad @Alex @Indigo @maksimilian_stepniakov @vera @0x520 @top @lanodan @kerosene @waltercool @cee @shebang
Interesting factoid I learned is that to maintain industrial civilization need 12 barrels of oil to come out of the ground for every 1 barrel used during extraction.
Logan, [2022-02-07 8:58 AM]
"In the 1960s, for every barrel consumed, the industry discovered six new ones. Today, with an ever more efficient technology, the world consumes seven barrels for each barrel discovered."
Logan, [2022-02-07 9:02 AM]
"The world is now using 27 billion barrels of oil a year. If every last drop of the remaining 1 trillion barrels could be extracted at current cost ratios and current rates of production—which is extremely unlikely—the entire endowment would last only another thirty-seven years."
From "The Long Emergency" by James Kunstler (2005)
Unaccaptable Jo 🇿🇦🇨🇦, [2022-02-07 9:05 AM]
Extremely unlikely - because? Are we going to extract it sooner than that do you think?
Logan, [2022-02-07 9:08 AM]
[In reply to Unaccaptable Jo 🇿🇦🇨🇦]
Lol, nah cause it gets more expensive the closer you get to the bottom. At some point you need to burn a barrel of oil to get a barrel of oil, so it is futile.
Unaccaptable Jo 🇿🇦🇨🇦, [2022-02-07 9:10 AM]
I understand ! Do you not think our oil reserves are more than they're telling us?
Logan, [2022-02-07 9:12 AM]
[In reply to Unaccaptable Jo 🇿🇦🇨🇦]
Nope, they are most likey much less. They have incentive to pretend they have more.
@icedquinn
"The problem is that our modern societies need a minimum EROI to maintain all the services currently offered to the population. The principle of energy use is roughly the following: we first allocate all the energy surplus we have to the tasks essential for our survival, such as food production, building and heating our habitats, making our clothes, and running health systems in the cities. Then we split the remaining balance between the systems of justice, national security, defence, social security, health and education. Finally, if we have any energy surplus left, we use it for our entertainment (tourism, cinema, etc.).
Today, the minimum EROI to provide all of these services has been assessed as within a range of between 12:1 and 13:1.54 In other words, there is a threshold beneath which we should not venture unless we are prepared to decide collectively – and with all the difficulties that this implies – which services are to be maintained and which it will be necessary to give up.55 With an average EROI in decline for fossil fuels, and an EROI of no more than 12:1 for the majority of renewable energies, we are coming dangerously close to this threshold."
From "How Everything can Collapse"
Logan, [2022-02-07 9:16 AM]
"At the beginning of the twentieth century, US oil had a fantastic EROI of 100:1 (for one unit of energy invested, one hundred units were recovered). You hardly needed to start digging before the oil started gushing. In 1990, it had fallen to only 35:1, and today it is about 11:1.43 As a comparison, the average EROI of the world production of conventional oil is between 10:1 and 20:1.44 In the United States, the EROI for oil sands lies between 2:1 and 4:1, that for agrofuels between 1:1 and 1.6:1 (10:1 in the case of ethanol made from cane sugar), and for nuclear power between 5:1 and 15:1.45 The EROI for coal is about 50:1 (in China, 27:1), for shale oil about 5:1 and for natural gas about 10:1.46 All these EROIs are not only declining, but declining at an accelerating rate since it is always necessary to dig deeper and deeper, go further out to sea and use ever more expensive techniques and infrastructures so as to maintain the level of production. Think, for example, of the energy that would be needed to inject thousands of tons of CO2 or fresh water into ageing deposits, and the roads that would need to be built, and the kilometres that would have to be covered in order to reach the remote areas of Siberia...."
From "How Everything can Collapse" (2015)
@xianc78 @0x520 @Alex @Indigo @ardaissad @cee @herag @kerosene @lanodan @maksimilian_stepniakov @matthew @shebang @top @vera @waltercool
In short, renewable energy does not have the potential to offset the decline in fossil fuel, and there are not enough fossil fuels (or ores) to massively develop renewable energies so as to offset the predicted decline in fossil fuels."
From "How Everything can Collapse" (2015)
@icedquinn @0x520 @Alex @Indigo @ardaissad @cee @herag @kerosene @lanodan @maksimilian_stepniakov @matthew @shebang @top @vera @waltercool @xianc78
@icedquinn @herag @shebang @kerosene @cee @vera @xianc78 @matthew @0x520 @maksimilian_stepniakov @waltercool @ardaissad @lanodan @Indigo @Andrii @Alex
@Andrii @matthew @herag @ardaissad @Alex @Indigo @maksimilian_stepniakov @vera @0x520 @top @lanodan @kerosene @waltercool @cee @shebang @icedquinn
If Distributism favors localism over nationalism and globalism, then I think you might be interested in the seasteading movement. It's mostly comprised of ancaps and other right-libertarians but it's meant for anyone to make their ideology a reality.
Distributists might be especially interested since seasteading can lead to self-sustainable communities.
Yeah I'm familiar with seasteading and was into it for a while, but based on my research seasteads suffer the same problem as boats, they sink. So land is much better and more reliable place for making 'steads.
The Hutterites and Amish being good examples. My plan is a similar approach but with food forests, and a larger repository of knowledge and technology.
@matthew @herag @ardaissad @Alex @Indigo @maksimilian_stepniakov @vera @0x520 @top @lanodan @kerosene @waltercool @cee @shebang @icedquinn
@Andrii @matthew @herag @ardaissad @Alex @Indigo @maksimilian_stepniakov @vera @0x520 @top @lanodan @kerosene @waltercool @cee @shebang @icedquinn Well, I wish you the best of luck.
arent u a minarchist tho?? or are u more voluntarist? i mean, classical panarchism had its flaws for sure, since the founder wasnt rlly philosophically minded. But in the contemporary, to me, i see it as a synthesis between minarchists and ancaps... just as Bookchin's communalism is like the synthesis of the minarchists and ancoms on the left.
@icedquinn @herag @kerosene @vera @xianc78 @matthew @0x520 @maksimilian_stepniakov @waltercool @ardaissad @lanodan @Indigo @top @Andrii @Alex
@shebang @icedquinn @herag @kerosene @cee @vera @xianc78 @matthew @0x520 @maksimilian_stepniakov @waltercool @ardaissad @lanodan @Indigo @Andrii @Alex
me and my 2 brain cells feel ya, just wanna chill and grill for god's sake... but it's too late. i cannot unlearn what i have learnt; now my 2 brain cells have to work overtime to process all this info lmao.
@icedquinn @herag @shebang @kerosene @vera @xianc78 @matthew @0x520 @maksimilian_stepniakov @waltercool @ardaissad @lanodan @Indigo @Andrii @Alex
@cee @icedquinn @herag @shebang @kerosene @vera @matthew @0x520 @maksimilian_stepniakov @waltercool @ardaissad @lanodan @Indigo @top @Andrii @Alex Okay, I maybe confused some people. When people talk about Panarchism it usually refers to two related but separate things:
* Multiple legal providers competing in the same physical space, similar to Ancient Ireland or the Icelandic Commonwealth.
OR
* Anarchists of all flavors creating voluntary communities based on their school of thought. Basically the same thing as anarchism without adjectives but also including Ancaps into the mix.
I think I fall into the latter category, but I'm not against people trying the former.
