b_chocolatey @b_chocolatey@qoto.org

@lack It’s easy to imagine oneself as an invisible, airy force-field looking out of one’s eyes and moving one’s legs. It is very difficult to imagine one’s self as the sum total of electrified eye-cells and brain-cells and leg-cells. Otherwise I would be no different than an alarm clock, or an internal combustion engine - and I am a person. I have feelings.

@lack “it’s god unless you can prove it’s not” because, well, how would you define god - except as an intelligence, a personality, that exists before and independent of the natural world? Before there was a God, there were gods. I live in my body, I move it around like a vehicle, grandma used to live in her body, grandma’s vehicle broke down, she no longer sits in her vehicle. This is the default way of seeing the world.

@lack well, are you an atheist or an agnostic?

@lack #atheism that hold up to its marketing has to be able to logically refute every kind of supernatural “woo”, not just the most conspicuous or ridiculous sort. #skeptics #skepticism And #rationalist materialism that lives up to its marketing, regrettably, does not exist.

@lack the argument I am making is that atheism - the perception that supernatural “woo” is the product of a barbaric age and easily disproven by even a moment of rational thought by any well-adjusted adult - well, runs into the limits of what is epistemologically rational. It is a cultural preference, a “vibe” that relies upon a self-reinforcing in-group. A social construct. #philosophy #modernism #postmodern #culture #politics #religion

@lack 6. Disbelieve in any ethical standard of “you should do that… you shouldn’t do that” except as determined by human intellect and social dynamics, which themselves are second-order and third-order effects of molecular chemistry, etc

@lack 4. Disbelieve in the possibility of the human mind and personality existing in some other form, after bodily death 5. Disbelieve in the possibility of the here-and-now human mind and personality having any causes outside of the laws of electricity, chemistry, and fluid and solid mechanics

@lack okay. In order to be an “atheist” as I understand it, you have to 1. Disbelieve in any possible historical persons with paranormal powers, who could walk on water, etc. 2. Disbelieve in the existence of any invisible-and-immortal entity that could will the dead back to life, etc, even without a human representative, outside intervention 3. Disbelieve in any possible creator who determined the natural laws of physics, wished for the universe to emerge from emptiness or from primal chaos

@lack “Is there a god?” “No I think there is no god, because Copernicus, Darwin, Hubble telescope.” “Okay, do you believe that you disappear when you die?” “Not sure. Who knows?” I’ve had conversations that go like this.

@lack also, I’m saying that you can’t prove “there is no God” without also proving “there is no soul and no afterlife”. It seems that some atheists get lazy with their arguments and don’t realize this.

@lack ok. Other than problem-of-evil, I have never heard even one argument for atheism that doesn’t work even better as an argument for either Deism, pantheism, or agnosticism.

@GeorgeAylett hi !

@lack what I’m saying is that widespread atheism tends to be politically motivated, during periods of social unrest and the #revolutionary moment, but it tends to die down quickly after the war fever.

@lack Atheism sort of took off with the various #communist revolutions in Eastern Europe (Latin American #leftists usually were more partial towards liberation theology of the “#Jesus was a #socialist” sort) and there was suppression of superstition in #China but even now, the #Chinese attitudes can’t really be called atheistic. They tend to believe in reincarnation and karma, and view #Buddhism favorably.

@lack tagging @wagesj45 for the new thread

@lack Atheism didn’t really become a thing at the civilizational and cultural level until the anti-clericalism of the French Revolution and the Cult of Reason. Even then, the Cult of Reason went out of fashion quickly, and they brought in a Cult of the Supreme Being (basically, Enlightenment Deism, Watchmaker creationism without any messiah or prophets) as I understand it.

@lack @lack standards). No other #intellectual achievements of the past 500 years come anywhere near close. That’s why #Newton, who invented #calculus and founded classical #physics, said that he “could see far by standing on the shoulders of giants”. #science #debate #inspirational #quote #quotes

@lack standards). No other intellectual achievements of the past 500 years come anywhere near close. That’s why Newton, who invented calculus and founded classical physics, said that he “could see far by standing on the shoulders of giants”.

@lack New thread. This one isn’t a question of why you are an atheist - different question. Why has atheism never (really) been a thing until recent history? Surely there were philosophical and scientific geniuses in prehistoric civilization and in the ancient world - they discovered fire, invented writing, invented the wheel, discovered how to cultivate plants and domesticated beasts of burden. They did this while performing excruciating manual labor, under constant privation (by modern …