b_chocolatey @b_chocolatey@qoto.org

@wagesj45 Come to think of it, the very first #Christian was also punished, by death, for apostasy. That didn’t prevent #Christianity from emerging as the prevailing culture

@wagesj45 2. the punishment for apostasy was also death in seventeenth-century #France, and twentieth century #China. Why was there never an #atheistic tribe before that time? Surely they, too, would have punished apostasy with death.

@wagesj45 1. The very point I was trying to make earlier was that the sharpest #scientific minds of the current age are absolutely pitiful compared to their 25000 BCE equivalent. Surely somebody would have “discovered” #atheism relatively early on, but belief in the paranormal and supernatural has been the norm among the #literate classes since the invention of #writing.

@lack it seems that I have more in common with a squirrel or a lizard than I do with the Charles Babbage mechanical adding machine. The squirrel has Life in it, which it received from its lineage and ancestors, just like I have life from my ancestors. And Life has existed in an un-interrupted chain, since, well, the dawn of time! Before that, even! Who knows! Maybe this elder sage knows, he seems to have something witty to say, every time he sniffs that flower

@lack It’s easy to imagine oneself as an invisible, airy force-field looking out of one’s eyes and moving one’s legs. It is very difficult to imagine one’s self as the sum total of electrified eye-cells and brain-cells and leg-cells. Otherwise I would be no different than an alarm clock, or an internal combustion engine - and I am a person. I have feelings.

@lack “it’s god unless you can prove it’s not” because, well, how would you define god - except as an intelligence, a personality, that exists before and independent of the natural world? Before there was a God, there were gods. I live in my body, I move it around like a vehicle, grandma used to live in her body, grandma’s vehicle broke down, she no longer sits in her vehicle. This is the default way of seeing the world.

@lack well, are you an atheist or an agnostic?

@lack #atheism that hold up to its marketing has to be able to logically refute every kind of supernatural “woo”, not just the most conspicuous or ridiculous sort. #skeptics #skepticism And #rationalist materialism that lives up to its marketing, regrettably, does not exist.

@lack the argument I am making is that atheism - the perception that supernatural “woo” is the product of a barbaric age and easily disproven by even a moment of rational thought by any well-adjusted adult - well, runs into the limits of what is epistemologically rational. It is a cultural preference, a “vibe” that relies upon a self-reinforcing in-group. A social construct. #philosophy #modernism #postmodern #culture #politics #religion

@lack 6. Disbelieve in any ethical standard of “you should do that… you shouldn’t do that” except as determined by human intellect and social dynamics, which themselves are second-order and third-order effects of molecular chemistry, etc

@lack 4. Disbelieve in the possibility of the human mind and personality existing in some other form, after bodily death 5. Disbelieve in the possibility of the here-and-now human mind and personality having any causes outside of the laws of electricity, chemistry, and fluid and solid mechanics

@lack okay. In order to be an “atheist” as I understand it, you have to 1. Disbelieve in any possible historical persons with paranormal powers, who could walk on water, etc. 2. Disbelieve in the existence of any invisible-and-immortal entity that could will the dead back to life, etc, even without a human representative, outside intervention 3. Disbelieve in any possible creator who determined the natural laws of physics, wished for the universe to emerge from emptiness or from primal chaos

@lack “Is there a god?” “No I think there is no god, because Copernicus, Darwin, Hubble telescope.” “Okay, do you believe that you disappear when you die?” “Not sure. Who knows?” I’ve had conversations that go like this.

@lack also, I’m saying that you can’t prove “there is no God” without also proving “there is no soul and no afterlife”. It seems that some atheists get lazy with their arguments and don’t realize this.

@lack ok. Other than problem-of-evil, I have never heard even one argument for atheism that doesn’t work even better as an argument for either Deism, pantheism, or agnosticism.

@GeorgeAylett hi !

@lack what I’m saying is that widespread atheism tends to be politically motivated, during periods of social unrest and the #revolutionary moment, but it tends to die down quickly after the war fever.

@lack Atheism sort of took off with the various #communist revolutions in Eastern Europe (Latin American #leftists usually were more partial towards liberation theology of the “#Jesus was a #socialist” sort) and there was suppression of superstition in #China but even now, the #Chinese attitudes can’t really be called atheistic. They tend to believe in reincarnation and karma, and view #Buddhism favorably.

@lack tagging @wagesj45 for the new thread