@jalcine @braindouche I'm happy to be wrong & reframe my analysis around any theory that makes more sense of the senseless waste I've observed. Maybe @braindouche is on the right track! Will think more on this.
Appreciate thoughtful engagement.
@slightlyoff @jalcine @braindouche
Continue to feel a lot of this was due to (mostly men) who wanted to distance themselves from the girly stench of HTML and CSS via "real" programming.
I suppose they at least succeeded in inflating FE salaries as a result. Arguably a win.
The bizarre 2-4 year period where that crowd absolutely obsessed over purity and monads in their JS code only underlines my thinks there... FP is as "hardcore" as it gets to a certain personality type.
@betsythemuffin @jalcine @braindouche The re-gendering of frontend thanks to JS bros has me personally hot under the collar, but I'm trying to understand how common that feeling is.
/cc @whalecoiner
@slightlyoff @jalcine @braindouche @whalecoiner
As a lady-shaped person who entered the industry via frontend pre-Bootstrap...... I can think of exactly one and a half people I know who fit those demographic criteria and who aren't ragefully perma-bitter about the dynamic. The one and a half exceptions are still rageful but like the JS community.
Perhaps not a terribly visible demographic to... a certain kind of developer. But one that had similar traumatic experiences as that type rose.
@betsythemuffin
Absolutely. Those of us who were there know damn right well that the pipeline for hiring women devs has always been through learning html/css/js, vsb and fsking PHP as part of a non-technical job. 30-something admins and office managers! What do we know, right?
@slightlyoff @jalcine @whalecoiner
@braindouche @betsythemuffin @jalcine @whalecoiner Seriously considering writing the "jokers to the left of me, ghosts to the right" blog post that has been seething under my skin, but I'm *acutely* aware that I'm 100% the wrong messenger.
@slightlyoff @braindouche @jalcine @whalecoiner I have a complex immediate response to that, honestly, because of the ways that people EITHER see what I mean immediately when I point this out and are also angry about it, OR are completely unconvinceable. My gender does make me less credible to the people who refuse to see.
I suppose one can question whether they are with reaching.
@betsythemuffin
Yeah, but that's not just in tech, that's basically all the jobs. But tech is worse. But also weirdly consistently inconsistent? Have you experienced this? If I'm the only woman on the team, it's fine. If the team is half not-white-men, it's fine. If the not's make up, like, 15-25% or so, it's a complete trash fire.
@slightlyoff
You're kidding. Really?
@betsythemuffin @jalcine @whalecoiner
@braindouche @betsythemuffin @jalcine @whalecoiner Not at all.
It's phrased in terms of retention (what's measurable is what's valued), and the observation is that teams that are already more diverse retain diverse talent at a higher rate.
@braindouche @slightlyoff @jalcine @whalecoiner hmm. Not sure I’ve ever actually experienced 20% — only ever near-parity (or better) OR only woman on the team. Only woman has been consistently hell, even if the folks are mostly individually fine. Never had a real problem at parity orgs, even when the men on the team came from places like Wall Street sysadmin.
@betsythemuffin
I do not recommend 20%, that's the bad place where you start getting asked to bring the birthday cakes.
And I wonder what makes the difference between our experiences as the only one? That seems like a deeper and more personal conversation than might be strictly appropriate on mastodon.
@braindouche @slightlyoff @jalcine @whalecoiner Hah, definitely a sensitive conversation.
Some possible variables: different language communities? Different at-work gender presentations (I present very femme) changing when one "sticks out" as not-a-dude vs when one flies under the radar?
IDK. Honestly, right now I'm retraining as a chemist and expect to find the *different* sexism in chemistry fascinating (and hopefully more tolerable).
@betsythemuffin
Definitely something to think about. Though I would say that while my presentation is quite butch, I've never found it made me less conspicuous in any particular way. Being a big fat person also is a factor that's hard to measure!
I wish you luck in chemistry! Thats super cool.
@braindouche @betsythemuffin @jalcine @whalecoiner that experience is well documented in the big Tech Cos.