1/2 Hah. After asking for photo and video of a broken cooler in my Framework 13, @frameworkcomputer outright refused to send me a warranty replacement part due to my initial order being mailed to a freight forwarder to Armenia (haha, AM soon?)
I would've understood that coming from the likes of Dell, or Lenovo — you are not legally obliged to follow through on warranty. And I do get that you want to discourage associating bad forwarding experiences with your company.
@frameworkcomputer But why do you make an already miserable path I chose even more miserable aftersale?
@frameworkcomputer
https://www.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/152xb9x/freight_forwarders_warranty_and_fairness/
So, you can't discuss freight forwarding on neither of #framework platforms. What the hell?
Exactly. Freight Forwarding is not allowed and neither is discussion about it on their official channels.
You can, however, always contact Framework support in private if you have any question or suggestions, even though they probably may not answer in a way you'd hope.
@Anachron @frameworkcomputer
Okay, I will try that, again. But it's either they afraid to do what has no precedents of being a liability, or it's another dumb thing akin to the reason of their board design not being public.
Framework always has a solid reason for doing and for not doing things.
If they decided that's not something they pursue at this time, there is a valid reason for it. And in fact they've stated the various reasons for it multiple times already on their forum.
Whether you accept the reasons or not is up to you.
I understand your frustration, but that's entirely your fault, you knew what you were getting into before ordering. Don't put the blame on them.
@Anachron @frameworkcomputer
That is an appeal to authority.
I have read those reasons, and they are mostly about people having bad experience sometimes — and this is not a valid reason to ban FFs outright IMO.
They did not state any reason clearly prohibiting them from sending, and did in fact sent laptops to FFs before — I got one this way, and my experience was ok.
If you've encountered The Reason while reading the forums — please link me to it.
@cab404 @frameworkcomputer https://community.frame.work/t/bringing-the-framework-laptop-to-more-of-the-world/15575/48
Took me one minute on the phone to find.
That is literally a crude «people are always having a bad experience with FFs» argument.
Also weird now they have to spend any additional time on FFs, since it's literally just a delivery to an address, and there are always unreasonable customers.
@cab404 @frameworkcomputer it's a "We will continue to expand our global operations in a way that is supported by legal guidelines, regulatory rules, financial means, logistics capabilities and available resourcing." statement that both you and I cannot change.
Why is that so hard for you to accept?
@Anachron @frameworkcomputer The fact that I can do forwarding with most other shops other than Framework.
@cab404 @frameworkcomputer for example? Just curious, not that it would change anything.
Pine64, Massdrop, Amazon — these are ones I've tried personally, there are plenty in support lists of particular forwarders (I am using Onex lately)
Pine64: https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/Pinecil_Shipping_and_Tracking#Why_doesn't_Pine_Store_Ship_to_my_country?
"For some countries people reported using a package forwarding company (unsure if safe or reliable, use at your own risk)."
Not officially supported.
Drop: https://helpdesk.drop.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019108914-International-Freight-Forwarding-Service
"Utilizing a freight-forwarding service is at your own discretion and expense."
So, freight forwarding is officially supported. But they also don't make products, only sell them.
1/2
Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=201910550
"Amazon won't be responsible for damage, defect, material difference, or loss that occurs to goods after they're delivered to you or a freight forwarder."
Officially supported.
So from the 3 you listed, only one does produce some of the products and also supports freight forwarding.
But you are not seriously comparing a company like Amazon to a startup like FrameWork ... are you?
@Anachron @frameworkcomputer That's why I've attached System76 example. You are not realistically asking if I've tried multiple small laptop manufacturers personally, are you?
All of them ask for caution, but do not openly waive their warranty, as Framework did.
well interesting, TIL that System76 does actually talk about freight forwarding on their website:
"Thelio is currently only available to ship in North America. Fill out the form below to be notified when Thelio is available in your country, or you can work with a freight forwarder to get your hands on one sooner."
Guess they're a bit longer in the market though (they're 18 years old).
@Anachron @frameworkcomputer Well, then they are actively going against judgement of a long time player in the market? Again, it doesn't take that much time to relay potential problems with FFs. It is not against laws to send through FFs knowing they are FFs. They don't go onto telling that «legislation in NY state where we hold our company don't work this way» — as they would with any other technicality. Nope. «FFs — bad.»
So I still don't see any valid reason for fucking with their customers.
@Anachron @frameworkcomputer And boy do I feel fucked by a company right now.
you're not f*ed, why would you use such a strong word?
You were just doing something unsupported. It's up to the company to "support" (or rather: accept) such a thing.
I can see that Framework might do that later on the road, but for now they have other priorities.
Take care.
> you're not f*ed, why would you use such a strong word?
I am being denied the only thing I was buying a Framework for. Something which comes as a default from other non-repair oriented companies. I am being held an idiot for believing that they would do something as simple as treating me no different to local customers — which is default for many smaller manufacturers.
Isn't that enough of a reason?
no, you were doing unsupported things and you knew what you were getting into.
You can't just force your views onto a company,- that's not how things work.
@Anachron @frameworkcomputer Well, I did get my laptop through forwarder. On checkout time, no flashing warnings «we won't even try to send you parts» were issued — cause I would turn away immediately. I see a big flashing sign «Repairable», I go and throw money at them.
And while I can't force anything on them, I can say that this is misleading, and goes against the promise of repairability — by excluding users who might have moved from a supported country to an unsupported one.
You mean something like this on the order page?
https://community.frame.work/t/discussion-of-freight-forwarding-is-prohibited/26102/4
@Anachron @frameworkcomputer Well, I've ordered mine July 22. Good for them that they are now issuing this «not supported» warning, I guess?
I have no idea since when this warning label exists.
What I ask myself: Why do you expect everyone, especially such small companies, to support such things by default?
Freight Forwarding is not normally supported and is an extra.
I believe if you were in their shoes you would see this whole situation in a different light.
@Anachron @frameworkcomputer The key difference between our worldviews is that I don't see it as an extra. It never were an extra. It is a regular package delivery, one drops it off and goes.
It is extra hassle with some unreasonable customers who will be blaming Framework for not reading customs warnings on their FF, alright.
And I can definitely see them getting one such customer and then flipping the hell out. Welp, nice, this way you can see any group of people as assholes. 1/2
Can you point me to a law or rule that Freight Forwarding should be supported by default? If not, then it is extra. You having different opinions doesn't matter, you are not the one making laws/rules.
If I am being honest, all I can see and hear is you acting entitled for something that is clearly not Frameworks fault. Why you can't see this is beyond me.
@Anachron @frameworkcomputer It's like saying that «They don't say houses painted pink are not supported, thus you are incorrect. Why do you feel entitled to getting your parts in a pink house? I sure don't live in one. Here, look, they even have it now in the rules.».
your example is absolutely not related.
Do you think Framework does not support Freight Forwarding because they are evil? Because they dont want such money/customers? Or because they are bored?
Because frankly I don't understand your way of thinking. It's all "I want this to happen no matter what I have to do" to me.
@Anachron @frameworkcomputer I hope, I really hope they are doing this because they are mistaken and made a bad decision.
And I as a person with whom that decision retroactively fucked with, I feel obliged to make that transparent.
I've paid for a laptop, it arrived.
I've asked for a replacement part, they found an excuse, it's that simple.
And nope, appealing to the fact that they don't have to support me cause I am not protected by US law will make it worse.
again, can you please stop seeing this from your perspective only?
But I guess it's hopeless trying to make you see it differently.
You made a mistake and want to blame someone else for it instead of standing up to it or finding solutions that don't require a company to bow to your idealogy.
Take care, I am not going to continue this discussion anymore, it's not fruitful.
@Anachron @cab404 @frameworkcomputer I can see that from the perspective of a potential buyer. I was enthusiastic about buying one, but now I'm reconsidering.
Unless the part is a battery or something like that, where they're severe restrictions on shipping, I don't see why it's impossible to bag a replacement part and send it to whatever address.
And the gag on discussing it? Wtf is going on with them? More money to HPs I guess...
@dpwiz @cab404 @frameworkcomputer
If they wouldn't block the discussion, people would be complaining about "How can you let us discuss about Freight Forwarding on your platforms, yet prevent us from doing so or give us no support if we actually did this?".
You see, there is always a way for people to complain. I am not saying not supporting FF is great/right, I am saying I understand why Framework is forbidding discussion on their channels. [2/2]
@dpwiz @cab404 @frameworkcomputer
Plus, it would stir up the confusion even more. Why let people talk about something that is not supported. You have a big fat "No Freight Forwarding supported" on the forums and the market and yet people suggest which ways are best right below or above it without them doing anything about it?
That just doesn't make sense. [3/2]
@Anachron @dpwiz @cab404 @frameworkcomputer
The trick is that FF to Framework looks like a regular address. There is no interaction or additional action required from the company other than delivery to that address domestically. All other responsibility and subsequent delivery actions are on the shoulders of the buyer. I understand why companies try to avoid FF in general (often stolen cards are used and there is no one to claim), but why they deny warranty service - I don't understand.
@dpwiz @cab404 @frameworkcomputer
why would they want to have their community talking about something they don't support actively, or even more specific, which they discourage us to do?
They wouldn't even sell the laptop if they know you are freight forwarding, why would they allow users to circumvent this decisions on their platforms?
They block it because that's not something they want to dig into right now. [1/2]