@beckymsm I actually know him personally, he has been over for dinner and spent thr night. So im a bit of an unusual case when it comes to Biden haters ;)

@beckymsm @freemo you know, it’s more than a little condescending to suggest that the only reason we don’t like Biden is because the Dems are “bad at messaging.” I know what Biden is about, he was communicating just fine when he betrayed the railroaders union.

@atompunkray @freemo I stand by my stance on messaging. I also agree the railroad thing was horrible! I was/am totally disgusted by that action.

@beckymsm @freemo you’re free to do so. Just don’t be surprised when you have trouble convincing ppl to vote Democrat. Maybe the Dems should focus less on how they can spin “business as usual” to appeal to millennials and zoomers, and focus more on actually sticking up for working people and marginalized people.

@atompunkray @freemo So vote GOP, because they are doing a great job solving issues.

@beckymsm

About as good a job as the DNC, which is to say, they aren't

@atompunkray

@freemo @atompunkray tell me how the DNC is banning books, taking away healthcare, taking away education and implementing voter suppression.

@beckymsm

The ways the dnc is doing harm is different than the ways the gop harm. Plus ive made it clear im no fan of the gop. So listing a bunch of ways the gop sucks, which i mostly agree with, is doing nothing to progress your argument.

@atompunkray

@beckymsm

Its always very telling when the overwhelming majority of people who support the dnc spend all their time arguing how much the gop sucks, a sure sign they have nothing to offer themselves.. Its almost like they dont realize we have several other options besides the two parties destroying peoples lives.

"Join the DNC, where we destroy lives marginally less then the GOP. Oh and remember if you dont vote for us ya ain't black" ::eye roll::

@atompunkray

@freemo @atompunkray Generalizing is really a bad way to think you are winning an argument. Tell me what "other" options? A 3rd party? A dictator?

@beckymsm

Just look on the ballot every election, you get more than two choices to pick from, some people on the ballot are from other parties, some on the ballot have no party affiliation at all. Christ you can write in a name if your in a pinch.

@atompunkray

@freemo @atompunkray Yes, you can. I know how to read. If that is your only solution to affect change, I fear that is also a losing argument. I guess I could just move out the Country too.

@beckymsm

I dont recall saying it was my only solution. I am pointing out how silly the argument is that the dnc being evil is somehow ok and a good choice simply because of a bunch of reasons the gop is evil... the decision isnt between two choices so the existence of an even more (maybe) evil party is no excuse to promote your marginally less evil one.

@atompunkray

@freemo @atompunkray Evil to me is allowing the GOP to continue to do what they do. That is evil. Is the DNC perfect, NOPE. Neither are any of the other choices. I don't see the Dems as "evil". Not sure what you see as evil.

@beckymsm

Letting the GOP continue what it is does would indeed be evil, so would letting the DNC. There you go again focusing on the GOP like it is remotely relevant.

@atompunkray

@freemo @atompunkray I don''t think dems are evil. You haven't told me why you think they are. To say it doesn't make it so.

@beckymsm

Lets start with the fact that they elected a man who is on record as saying he doesnt want "Racial jungles" and started his entire career trying to **stop** desegregation.. .Then once he realized how unpopular that was he pandered to minorities to a disgusting and disingenuous degree simply because its popular... Yes they elected the first man in my life time who literally got his start trying to keep segregation alive.

I could spend hours writing you a long list, but if I even need to list a single thing past this point and you dont think the dems are evil, then any other points I list are going to fall on deaf ears anyway.

@atompunkray

@freemo @beckymsm @atompunkray My take on Biden is that he's always been good at positioning himself at about the midway point in the Democratic party spectrum, and following it as it moved. Honestly, as I grow older I tend to appreciate this quality more and more in politicians: too many people with bright ideas who thought themselves very clever have failed to impress me, while my appreciation for the hard thankless work of coalition building has grown.

And yeah, of course a lot that passed for boring midway point liberal attitudes when he was young is now considered racist. Jon Stewart made fun of trans people on the Daily Show not that many years ago, most Dem politicians supported the death penalty and draconian laws in the '90s... Those who spend a whole life in politics or culture will always come to regret something they said.

@werner58

The problem isnt that he was once racist and changed, though that is a tough pill to swallow. The issue is tbe lack of remorse. Never an apology.

It doesnt help how transparent the minority pandering is either. So much so he will pick a vice president with a horrific record just because she is a minority rather than picking someone qualified.

@beckymsm @atompunkray

@werner58 @freemo @beckymsm here’s the thing.. you say you appreciate coalition building and Biden’s ability to find the center point of the Democratic Party more than “clever ppl with big ideas.” At what point does your politics become about valuing getting elected over valuing actually accomplishing anything? My interest in politics is how to make life better for my friend’s and family, so some rich guy being able to “play the game” really well doesn’t impress me if he never actually does anything worthwhile.

Another thing you mentioned is that alot of milquetoast liberal positions of the 90’s are now viewed as awful and racist, transphobic, etc. Doesnt that make you stop and think? If focusing all your efforts on being a “normal liberal” result in you looking back in 20 years on horrible bigoted opinions- don’t you think you should spend more time thinking about “what’s right” rather than “what’s acceptable?” Because the thing is- no matter what the liberals say, even back in the 90’s there were plenty of ppl who saw the Crime Bill for the racist BS it was. There were ppl who supported the trans community.

This also goes to show VERY clearly why Biden is having a hard time getting some ppl to like him. Sure he supports trans ppl now- but (and you even said this) the second it’s no longer popular to do so that support goes right out the window. And trans ppl know this. You can’t expect support from people that you yourself don’t truly support

@beckymsm @freemo you may not have heard this term, but there is a thing called “the ratchet effect.” Basically by supporting the Dems and their “we’re two notches to the left of wherever the GOP happen to be today” BS, you’re contributing to the rightward slide of our country.

@atompunkray

Very well said, agreed

@beckymsm