After posting this yesterday, and one person throwing a fit it made me want to check myself.
So I reached out to all my black friends who grew up and currently live in the south.. I asked them their impressions about people wholly the confederate flag.
Every single one of them said that they agree with what I said, the southern flag wavers were always the kindest people they met and while they have experienced racism (of course) it was never targeted from them and in fact they were some of the least racist people they have ever met...
No surprise, as usual the racists are the ones trying to pretend they are the heros vilifying the good ones.
🇳🇱
@freemo@qoto.org
That sounds a little implausible.
I love hitler jokes and i wouldn't mind to fly a nazi flag for the lulz and as a sign of protest. I am myself not a nazi, i don't hate queer or black or jewish folks, i just love jokes and don't like mr. Putin.
But 99% of other people who wouldn't mind to fly a nazi flag are... well, nazis 😐
@lonelyowl Yea nazi flag isnt remotely comparable however...
For starters the north was **extremely** violent against Native Americans. So there was not one side that was clearly the racist and the other the good guy. Native Americans almost entierly fought for the south since the north was still actively trying to wipe my people out.
Moreover the north still had slaves at the start of the civil war and the emancipation proclimation only freed the southern slaves not the northern (though the states did free them later in time). Largely pointing to the less than obvious divide, it was very much a grey area.
WW2 also was "evil vs evil" situation from today point of view unless you discount the mores of the times. Sir Churchill was super racist, soviet union was fucking insane imperial violence machine and the US also had racial segregation.
But the flags being flown today are not so much about history as about contemporary narratives and modern meaning, and today confederate flag is widely associated with racism and slavery.
I'm not trying to say you're lying or misguided, since you likely know your country and people better than me 😀
It's just difficult to imagine for me that a lot of people flying a flag is widely associated with racism and slavery aren't racists.
Say what you will, and i think its fair to question if the association is generally good or whatever.. but the facts are, these flags and symbols arent treated the same...
1) Virtually everyone with no exception who adopts the swastika specifically in a way that is linked with Nazis (it is a positive symbol in other cultures) uses it with racist intent.
2) The over whelming majority of southern people who fly the confederate flag do not do so with racist intent and are generally kind people who arent very racist at all.
To me anything else about if its a good look or not is scondary.. intent means far more than anything else, and the intent of people who fly the confederate flag is almost never a racial one.
> I know that wikipedia is not always super neutral and accurate, but it says that the flag is definitely associated with racism and some other evil garbage, and has a long history of being used in racist context after the civil war 🤔
We all know it, like the USA flag itself, has associations with racism.. Its hard for a flag to exist as long as it has and not be. And sometimes Im sure its been used explicitly as a sign of racism, but that is the exception and doesnt say much about other people who fly it.
> But okay, i'll assume you're right, then what do they mean by flying that flag?
I have asked this of a lot of people. Usually the answers I get are some of the following:
1) As a symbol of rebelion against the government
2) Southern pride / heritage
3) Freedom
I'd say the overwheming majority was #2.
As a symbol of rebelion against the government
Freedom
A rather weird chose of flag since there is a gadsden flag used by libertarians internationally for exactly this, without other contexts.
But okay, anyway thanks for the explanation 🙂
@lonelyowl Not so weird when you consider that even when used as a symbol of freedom, it stillhas a connotation of southern pride and southern independence... something other flags wouldnt have and therefore less appealing as a symbol for those int he south.
I know that wikipedia is not always super neutral and accurate, but it says that the flag is definitely associated with racism and some other evil garbage, and has a long history of being used in racist context after the civil war 🤔
But okay, i'll assume you're right, then what do they mean by flying that flag?