@timorl He did **not** have a negative view of **political** moderates... he had mentioned criticisms of "White moderates" but they were moderate in the sense of the politicial spectrum.. he was talking about whites who were not vocal against racism while not actively being racist themselves... he was purely talking about a moderate stance on racism, not politics.

@freemo Are you seriously suggesting that race was not a (if not the!) political issue then? o.0 Not to mention it still is now.

Besides, you might want to read some of his later writings, where he explicitly advocates socialism. Due to how the party system in the US looks, no socialists (or other left ideologies) particularly like any of the parties, but I don’t think you would call them centrists, no?

@timorl

> Are you seriously suggesting that race was not a (if not the!) political issue then? o.0 Not to mention it still is now.

Literally anything and everything can and is a politicial issue, then and now...

Science is a big political issue too with the right thinking the scientific community are liars and corrupt and with the left generally saying to follow the science as a mantra... Does that mean if someone calls me a "moderate scientist" that they are implying im politically moderate? Of course not

Racism was politicial, but calling a moderately racist white person as somehow meaning the same as a person with an overall political stance that is moderate is absolutely not the same.

MLK made it clear in two ways

1) he has never said or suggested he was talking about political moderates, on racist moderates 2) he has explicitly taken a centrist/moderate political opinon in what he has said and done time and time again.

@freemo His arguments against “white moderates” are perfectly applicable to any other kind of political moderate though. Why do you think he only applied them to race politics? Plus, he wasn’t writing about “moderately racist people” – the letter was about people who, through a misguided vision of being moderate, kept insisting that his goals were just (so they weren’t really personally racists, just, as we would say today, insufficiently anti-racist), but the timing was wrong, a mantra that is oft repeated in many political contexts when some group wants change for the better.

Amusingly, I kinda agree that he was a moderate, since he only advocated democratic socialism, which is a moderate position from my perspective. It was, and continues to be, to the left of any of the US party positions though. He was also to the left of both parties on race, quite obviously. That’s why I vehemently disagree with calling him a “centrist” in the US context, although feel free to call him a moderate if you consider democratic socialism moderate.

@timorl

Except not... racism is a clear evil, it is bad in any quantity and when you facilitate others doing it through inaction it is virtually always wrong.

So yes being on the fence as to whther a minority is "equal enough" and going "thats an ok about of pain they deal with ill accept it".. is never acceptable. It is evil in all proportions.

So no,, we cant apply that to other things too often because most things are not as wholly evil as racism is. If the choice is between locking down the borders complete with no exception or having completely open boards (two radical non-moderate extremes on views)... you have something that is not wholly one sided evil... Either of those choices in their radical extreme can and will harm communities. Where moderate solutions may find actual long term workable solutions.

In fact, we find that outside of a few exceptioons most things have valid arguments on both sides where only a moderate could hope to reach a good balance effective solution that actually fixes the problems.

@freemo You could say the same about poverty or militarism – they are clearly evil, and MLK was also explicitly speaking out about them (well, in the quote I’m thinking of, he was saying “capitalism” rather than “poverty”, but that hardly helps your case). But you are arguing the less important part of the argument – MLK was clearly not a centrist, because he was to the left of both parties in the US, do you disagree with that?

@timorl

> You could say the same about poverty

Sure poverty is fairly close to always bad (you can argue it gives character, but only if you actually get out of it at some point)..

So yes you shouldnt be "I am pro poverty I want more people to be poor!" (extreme left communism)... and you shouldnt be "I am anti poverty and I think 100% of people should be billionairs (extreme left to the point of pooling all the money and letting everyone else die)....

Neither extreme is good, so again, we have centrism being best, where people want to eliminate the poor, but not the rich, but also accept that the middle glass should thrive.

@freemo I have the feeling you are ever so slightly strawmanning communism… but, more importantly, you are clearly avoiding the topic of the conversation. I’m not arguing whether being moderate is good or bad, but whether MLK can be accurately called a centrist.

So, do you disagree with any of the below?

MLK was a democratic socialist.
Democratic socialism was and is to the left of both US parties.
By 1 & 2 calling MLK centrist is wrong.

@timorl

> I have the feeling you are ever so slightly strawmanning communism…

Its not about communism or what you think.. But when it comes to poverty there are two extremes... Either you make everyone poor by taking it away so no one has any (communism), or you let everyone starve and die and give the wealth one or a few elites.. Both extreme non-moderate approaches are harmful compared to moderate approaches between those two

Thats all it isnt about communism.

> Im not arguing whether being moderate is good or bad, but whether MLK can be accurately called a centrist.

Well you did earlier, you tried to claim that his view on moderates when it came to race could apply to other political things in the same way, which i demonstrated it cant, and MLK likely would have known that.

> but whether MLK can be accurately called a centrist.

Happy to go back to that.. so I provided one piece of strong evidence where it made clear he was at least somewhere opposed to both parties, essentially playing both sidism and demoncrating himself as a centrist with that quote

Any time he has been asked to side with a party or a part of the political spectrum he never has... Do you have **any** quotes or evidence from him he saw one side of the political spectrum especially superior to the other?

@freemo

Finally back to the topic. You haven’t answered my questions directly (this would be helpful for the future) but since you write

Any time he has been asked to side with a party or a part of the political spectrum he never has…

I assume that means you disagree with MLK being a democratic socialist. So for quotes you can have a whole collection here, but you can also check the sources of the Wikipedia page for MLK. The latter also contains quotes where he clearly states he at least mostly voted for Democrats (and he was even planning to endorse one, only a political assassination stopped him), and no indication whatsoever that he ever voted for a Republican – imo that’s much less interesting than his actual political views, but also disproves the other part of your statement about not siding with any of the parties.

@timorl

So first lets lead in with another quote showing his centrism:

"The Negro has been betrayed by both the Republican and the Democratic party. The Democrats have betrayed him by capitulating to the whims and caprices of the Southern Dixiecrats. The Republicans have betrayed him by capitulating to the blatant hypocrisy of reactionary right wing northern Republicans." -- MLK

> I assume that means you disagree with MLK being a democratic socialist

You seem to misunderstand centrists.. They can and will pick views on one side of the fence or another.. gut they will not espouse it as an ideologically pure idea, they will try to temper it and bring it to a modified more central manifestation.

I am about as centrist as you get, but I have views on both sides of the spectrum, usually strongly, and always modifiy those views to address the nuance rather than use a sledge hammer, bringing them closer to the center. For example sure, I beleive in free guns, but i also beleive in tax paid resources, like giving everyone a free gun paid for by taxes... cant get more centrist than that! (I am half-joking of course)...

But to get back to MLK, yes he leaned more social-welfare capitalism (what we really mean when we say democratic socialism) than pure capitalism. In fact he even made clear that while he liked the idea of social-welfare the pure system of socialism would need to be modified in some way in order to be of use to us. Here is the quote:

"If we are going to achieve a real equality, the U.S. will have to adopt a modified form of Socialism." -- MLK

So yea as always he leaned one way, but never to the ideaologically pure end of the spectrum where the extremes exist, he lives well within the moderates and close to the center.

> The latter also contains quotes where he clearly states he at least mostly voted for Democrats (and he was even planning to endorse one, only a political assassination stopped him), and no indication whatsoever that he ever voted for a Republican

That sounds like a compelling argument. Sadly when i followed the cited sources so i could read and gather an opinion I couldnt find anything linked I could follow. More research needed.

@freemo The quotes you bring up show he disliked both parties, I’m arguing that this is not the same as centrism – otherwise a hardline communist would count as a centrist, since they also heavily dislike both US parties.

And again, neither US party supported or supports democratic socialism, and neither of them supported or supports MLK’s views on solving racism. So he couldn’t have just picked views from between the parties, since they were both to the right of him. You could say he was a moderate if you also admitted that both US parties are on the right, but I’m pretty sure that is not your position (although it is mine).

Also, you are confusing democratic socialism with social democracy. Not your fault, the names are terrible (and while looking this up I learned there is also socialist democracy which is another different thing… great naming). Only the second is the social-welfare capitalism you mention, and MLK supported the first.

You seem to have a definition of “centrist” that either covers anyone who ever thought about their political opinions rather than just joining a team, or is about being between the two US parties – these definitions are clearly incompatible, so which one is it? Or are you using an even different one?

For the sources you could’ve really spent a little more time and you would have found them, e.g. about endorsing Kennedy. You might also be interested that while he never ended up endorsing a Democrat, he explicitly spoke out against Republicans, look for “Republican candidate” here for the quote.

@timorl

Yes your right i did mix those up.. while i was familiar witht he difference i do often mix them up accidentally due to the bad naming.

Yes I agree being against the two parties doesnt neccesarly make you centrist, only when other quotes are lacking it is suggestive of that.

Assuming the quotes on wikipedia can be verified (so far I havent been able to) then I agree his statements would be suggestive of a left lean.

My definition of centrist appears fine and normal, I just lacked some information about MLK.

@lxo Do you have anything he said or did that would suggest this to be true? Because his actions, that I know of, dont do anything to suggest this.

At the time moderate wasnt even use as a term to describe a region of the political spectrum.

I'm not really disputing his alignment, that I know nearly nothing about, only the IMHO nonsensical argument that being neither repug nor demock makes one a centrist

@freemo
heh, I've just realized I had a major stupidity leak yesterday
you were talking about MLK Jr, and I was here thinking "I didn't even know MLK had had a son"
it was only when I reread this today that I recalled that it was MLK himself was MLK Jr
so I take back the "I know nothing about his alignment". I do know one thing or another about him, I was just thinking you meant someone else, whom I knew nothing about, when I said I didn't.