Another interesting fact about #Israel ... There is no historical evidence that a kingdom of Israel in anctient times **ever** actually existed. In fact most non-religious scholars feel that it either didnt exist or at the very least the writings about it were first written long long after it may have existed. This is evident because of countless anachronisms that we know couldnt be historically accurate (as they didnt exist yet for the time period)... so scholars have been able to reasonably conclude the account in the bible was in all likelihood made up at a later time.
In short, #Israel 's entire claim of it being an "ancient ancestral land" is based entirely on the bible and not accepted as historical fact by historians...
Yet again people kill for their gods, gods who tell them the first rule is not to kill.
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@freemo@qoto.org
@freemo I'm a BDS activist, so don't take this as an attempt to back up zionist narratives, but Jews have recorded history in Palestine wrt to the Jewish-Roman Wars, which saw their expulsion, and Samaritan Jews have had a continued presence in Nablus since ~100BC, and still do today (they are few, maybe 300, but I've been to their village -- they are Palestinians. and yes they are Jews, just not Rabbinical jews; the Pentateuch is Torah, with some key differences).
whether we Ashkenazis have roots in Palestine, I believe just vague traces at the genetic level due to marriages with Sephardic and maybe some Samaritans as well, but from what I understand we're the product of assyrian jews migrating to central asia and marrying with caucasian and turkic tribes, some of which converted to Judaism, and continued migrating westward, eventually settling among germanic tribes in the area that spans from today's Belarus to Estonia.
I am in no way claiming jews didnt live in the area in anctient times. I think that is well established for sure.
I would say its very reasonable to say palestine was the original home to jews and arabs, and any fair right of return should be a home to both..
I do not beleive in Palestine for the arabs or jews for israel... I beleive in one nation for both since both groups have roots in the land and people should be welcomed to the land they have ancestry from.
Sounds like we mostly agree.
Oh, yes the way it should have happened is palestine should have integrated the jews naturally. If they had (Rather than jews taking land and creating their own country) we would already have a one state solution and that would be great.
But yea my solution has always been a one-state one where both groups have equal rights, vote, right to return, etc.
@freemo @realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
I would just point out that the Arab Revolts of the 30s were due to groups like the Irgun lead by Ze'ev Jabotinsky committing atrocities against Palestinians. Zionists did not show up in any friendly capacity, ever. Zionists explicitly called for, in their words, the colonization of Palestine, from the 1899 Zionist Congress in Baltimore, and thats what they went and did.
Many Hasidim migrated to Palestine and were resolutely, religiously opposed to Zionism until after the Shoah. and they did not seek to colonize Palestinians. and with every Palestinian uprising, tens of thousands of "Israelis" leave. Estimates suggest that between 50 - 70% of Israliens have a foreign passport; those people will all leave. Much of the Haredim will remain, but not the neo-orthodox, which is a weird and larpy thing genocidal secular jews get into in order to become extremists. and the largest Hasidic groups such as Satmar remain strict anti-zionist, and over 50% don't recognize Israel because its clearly an abberation of the Torah.
but most secular liberal zionists are too racist to stay. they want to be White. the zionist dream is to become independent White Europeans who get to lead a scramble for africa of our own.
on the other hand, when it becomes Palestine, I will move there. because a lot of my best friends are Palestinian and I will be able to find decent work and enjoy decolonized palestine and the amazing country and culture they have. I live in Hanoi, Viet Nam, which is the coolest, most properly sovereign decolonial country I've ever been to, and I hope Nablus will one day be the Hanoi of the future.
Excellent context... a lot of that is new to me but some of it not. Regardless this is a great share of info, thanks.
@freemo yep, I'd say so, but I'm not sure I believe most ashkenazim have any "right" to be there, we are not indigenous to the land in any way shape or form. and I'm not sure I still buy into Edward Said's vision of a binational solution, for the simple reason that I think its a violation of judaism for eretz Yisroel to be associated with any kind of government or state. and I'm not religious, I'm just very influenced by the Chasidic tradition, and I think that the Talmud contains many sage lessons, that have material purposes that facilitate a tikkun olam (repairing the world) as a practice that happens with other non-jews, and ensures we treat them with dignity and respect; if we actually follow Talmud at least, for which a jewish nation is strictly forbidden.
For me there is a huge issue with giving land to someone based on race, particularly a group that is 2000+ years removed.. I mean genetically the jews of today are probably very far removed, in part due to them being dispersed.
Its problematic at best.
@freemo @rml I didn’t know this was your position. I’d like to see this too.