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@jeffowski Good post, not related to billionairs, but otherwise a good post I wish more people understood.
@jeffowski Incorrect, though it is a common perspective and I understand that you believe thqt to be the case.
That isnt to say that billionairs do no wrong, they do, right along with people at any income level.
@freemo โ it is a much greater moral failing of a billionaire not using that power to feed and house people than a worker going paycheck to paycheck not volunteering.
Voltaire: "Everyone is guilty of all the good they did not do."
On average richer people donate a much larger percentage of their ownings to help the poor that middle-class well off people, but a pretty big margin.
So yes, and they **do** donate more, statistically speaking. The problem is not wholly theirs to bear however.
@freemo โ I think someone famous once said that with great power comes great responsibility.
Being a billionaire would grant the vast majority of the population an unimaginable power to change lives with money alone.
Again, itโs always a white Northern European guy that is defending the status quo because they are insulated from the problems incurred by their morally bankrupt views and philosophy.
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> Again, itโs always a white Northern European guy that is defending the status quo because they are insulated from the problems incurred by their morally bankrupt views and philosophy.
Oh, who is that? I am not white (im native american), and I'm not norther European or even European... Thanks for that racist remark though, really shows your true colors.
@freemo โ the attitude of the colonizer from a native person? Just shows you have affluence truly corrupts.
Well I guess thats one way to respond to you finding out your comment was racist nonsense.. just double down on it.
Welcome to the mute list.
@freemo โ you defend billionaires. Go suck off Elon Musk.
@jeffowski @freemo the church of Jeff doesnโt understand why envy is a sin.
Usually when someone starts spewing racist garbage in response to an otherwise polite difference of opinions its a pretty good indication that "understanding" is really one of their strong suits.
@freemo @justinerickson โ you live in the Netherlands where they accept the highest wealth disparity on the planet of any nation. You argue points of the very regular Germans, Dutch, Danish collective that fight against whatever message is being expressed. Canโt help it if they fit a very specific stereotype and keep representing as such. See my feed. I talk about this phenomenon regularly.
Dat blijkt in Nederland niet uit collectes. Collectanten halen in wijken met een lagere welstand veelal aanzienlijk meer op per huishouden dan in welvarender wijken.
You are refering to door--to-door collections, not overall donations. Also I wasnt talking specifically of the Netherlands but rather world-wide statistics. I dont know the numbers specific tot he Netherlands.
It looks kind of flat to me (see graph 11 in https://www.philanthropyroundtable.org/almanac/statistics-on-u-s-generosity/ ), perhaps the numbers would be different if the data were more granular at higher income levels but 2-3% seems to be the number above ~ 50k/yr in the us.
sadly I dont have anything more recent on hand, but attached is the actual data normalized properly for AGI and only looking at individuals, not corporations. AS you can see super wealthy contribute more than double, in terms of % of income, than the well-to-do middle class.
Thanks, good to know. The graph I had didnโt go that high.
@Gbudd @freemo @jeffowski As it should be! Theyโre sitting on BILLIONS of dollars! They should be giving away 90% of it, not 10%! Smh
@Gbudd @freemo @jeffowski Exactly this. The lucky middle class (me) mostly have no idea what itโs like to be properly poor. The stress that comes with that - with not knowing when the next crisis is coming that could make you homeless again? I canโt imagine it. Universal basic income now, no billionaires now.
@freemo $10m and up is a huge range though. Wonder how distributed a further breakdown would show that single average number to be. That seems to be the IRS's cutoff of income bracketing as well, so probably no way to expand it more.
The question is why there is a gap and then apparent climb in percentage, and I imagine it's a combination of cost of living needs vs. donating as well the definite advantage of giving away a maximum tax deductible amount when one has it to give to reduce tax burden overall.
The trend does continue higher up the range last I looked at this a few years back.
We can only speculate ont he reason. but cost of living makes little sense since the lower bracket is quite well-to-do. Doiing it for tax purposes would in almost all cases cost you more than you get back, so that makes little sense in most cases too.
For anyone who has friend circles who are rich, as I do, it seems obvious why,. rich people are generally creators and doers, they see problems, like poverty, and they want to fix it. Its quite common for them to be involved in the process well beyond the money
@freemo @jeffowski Everything they have is stolen. What difference does it make if they give some of it back to their victims?
Also not true.. i am sensing some pretty fundemental misunderstanding of how wealth works. It sounds like you probably beleive the common fallacy that wealth is a zero sum game. That someone can only have wealth by taking it from someone else.
@freemo @jeffowski Nope. I understand wealth perfectly well. Wealth is capital, that is productive property to some people are denied access, private property. Capital earns money through the forcible appropriation of other people's labor. Which is why property is theft, as is wealth.
You say you understand it, then your explanation proves you dont. Since you dont seem willing to learn ill just leave it there. Thanks for the conversation, best of luck to you.
It is always someone elses fault, or the fault of some group other than the person who takes issue...That is not a coincidence, it is also the root of the problem.
it always comes off as a conspiracy theory. The hilariously part is the left calls right wing conspiracy theorist but they seem to be the ones who come up with it or believe in them the most.
Neither the left nor the right have any shortage of conspiracy theory nonsense.
@freemo @lonelyranger@shitposter.club โ thank you for demonstrating who has the power to act and who doesnโt.
It is not a failing of a poor person with no power to use the only power they have in their voice, versus the powerful/affluent person who HAS power but doesnโt take action (or worse, use that power to maintain the status quo where they keep their power and money to the detriment of others).
@jeffowski No one said anything about poor people... I refereed specifically to well-to-do middle class in my one example.
If your going to make up things I didnt say and then argue against those your just wasting my time.
You can't have billionaires without capitalism. Billionaires imply capitalism.
You can't have capitalism without enclosure of the commons. Capitalism implies enclosure.
You can't have enclosure without homelessness. Enclosure implies homelessness.
Therefore billionaires imply homelessness.
Wrong on literally all accounts…
You can’t have billionaires without capitalism. Billionaires imply capitalism.
you can have billionaires without capitalism, you only need money to have billionaires and simply having money is not enough to qualify as a capitalism.
Stalin was estimated to be worth 7.5 trillion in todays money, and that was a communistic society.
You can’t have capitalism without enclosure of the commons. Capitalism implies enclosure.
There is also no requirement for one to engage in closure of the commons for capitalism. No capitalism doesnt imply closure. One can have closure of the commons both with and without capitalism. Although generally some degree of this is a good thing anyway, so the fact that it is common both in capitalism and non-capitalism is a good thing.
You can’t have enclosure without homelessness. Enclosure implies homelessness.
You absolutely can. It is entierly possible to have some closure of the commons and still eliminate homelessness. Its also entirely possible to have no closure of the commons and still have homelessness. Having common ground doesnt necessarily mean you have the means to build a home (the resources or ability).
@freemo @jeffowski Soviet Russia was a capitalist society. There are no billionaires without capitalism.
Without enclosure there's no reliable labor force to exploit, so no capitalism. This is why there has never in history been a capitalist economy without enclosure. The fact that there can be enclosure without capitalism is a non sequitur. You're confusing my claim with its converse.
If there's no homelessness then the commons aren't enclosed. Again the argument is historical. There has never been an economy with enclosed commons that failed to have homelessness.
> Soviet Russia was a capitalist society. There are no billionaires without capitalism.
Again, wrong. You only need money, not capitalism, for billionairs.
> Without enclosure there's no reliable labor force to exploit, so no capitalism. This is why there has never in history been a capitalist economy without enclosure. The fact that there can be enclosure without capitalism is a non sequitur. You're confusing my claim with its converse.
Either you really dont understand what enclosure of the commons means or you dont understand what capitalism means.
For starters there has never been **any** form of government that didnt have some degree of enclosure of the commons, capitalism or otherwise.
Second even if you didnt have a closer of the common, you'd still need a labour force. In fact the idea that you wouldnt seems highly ignorant of even the most basic considerations, as if access to land were the only reason people work.
@freemo @jeffowski Great. Why don't you tell me what you think capitalism is. Tell me in a way that shows that Soviet Russia was not capitalist
Why don't you tell me what enclosure of the commons is, then. Also, the fact that non-capitalists may enclose the commons is irrelevant. I'm only claiming that capitalists must enclose Capitalism implies enclosure. The fact that the converse is occasionally true is irrelevant.
I shouldnt need to tell you, these terms are well defined. So it isnt something I or you get to have an opinion on.
Capitalism is where both the means and distribution of production can be privately owned, and free-markets are enforced.
There is of course some room for interpritation of what “free market” means, but generally its accepted as either unregulated, or regulated to ensure all players have equal opportunity in negotiating trade.
Since soviet russia had the means of production as state-owned it is not by definition a capitalism.
I’m only claiming that capitalists must enclose Capitalism implies enclosure. The fact that the converse is occasionally true is irrelevant.
Still not true by the definition of capitalism. It is enclosed in all societies to some degree whether capitalist or not because it is a good thing for society, something we generally all agree on. But no there is nothing inherent about capitalism that would require it. Land ownership is not a requirement of capitalism by definition.
@freemo @jeffowski
3 defining aspects of capitalism
1. Private ownership
2. Employer-employee relationships
3. Markets
This is just a general definition based on how people use the term informed by historical criticisms.
What is seen as capitalism will still depend on the particular analysis of capitalism. An analysis focused on workplace democracy would not see the Soviet Union as non-capitalist because it did not have universal workers' self-management
I prefer to stick with the accepted definition than to try to make up our own.
Employer-employee relationship is not remotely unique to capitalism, and markets in general can exist in non-capitalist countries, it is not wholly unique to capitalism. what defines capitalism is **free** market, not simply having a market. Even private ownership is only capitalism when it is private ownership of the means of production. Being able to own a pocket watch doesnt make something capitalist.
@freemo @jeffowski I meant ownership of the means of production.
Employer-employee relationship is definitely a defining element of capitalism. Many critics of capitalism such as the classical laborists centered their criticism on wage labor (employer-employee relationship). Many of the modern critiques of capitalism center on workplace authoritarianism and the distribution of a firm's whole product.
Would you consider an economy where all firms were democratic worker coops capitalism?
Employer-employee relationships is the norm in both capitalist and non-capitalist society. You still have jobs in non-capitalist economies and if you have a job there is an employee employer relationship. It just so happens sometimes the employer is the government or a co-op.
@freemo @jeffowski Nah a democratic worker coop is joint self-employment not employer-employee relationship
Thats not in line with any of the normal language used. Someone owning the companyt hey work for along side other people doesnt stop that entity from being an employer.
All the companies I run have a stock-options program where my employees are part owners int he company. Despite the fact that they are owners there is still the same employee-employer relationship.
@freemo @jeffowski Stock options are different from the kind of control rights one gets in a worker coop because they are attached to the functional role of working in the firm. You can still get stock options in a worker coop as non-voting preferred shares
The classical laborists were critiquing was having an alien legal party appropriate the positive and negative product that workers are de facto responsible for. I don't think the language we use is relevant to the theory
Would you consider an economy where all firms were democratic worker coops capitalism?
It may be, it may not. As long as people have the options to privately own means of production, then its capitalism. If no one exercised that right and everyone choose to only operate as co-ops as long as they have the option then it is still capitalism.
@freemo @jeffowski There is a misunderstanding of how the property and contract system works here. Capital ownership does not determine firmhood. The employer gets those rights in the employer-employee contract. Capital only increases bargaining power to get favorable market contracts.
Workplace democracy is actually compatible with private ownership of the means of production. A worker coop can rent capital.
In such an economy, the employment contract is abolished
Exactly, co-op based systems are still entierly allowed within capitalist system, but there is still an employee-employer relationship even if you are part of a co-op.
@freemo @jeffowski If the employed and employing legal party is the same, it is reasonable to think of that as joint self-employment.
I will use the terminology the way you do.
In an economic democracy, workers' inalienable right to workplace democracy and to appropriate the positive and negative fruits of their labor is recognized. A right is inalienable when it cannot be given up even with consent. In an economic democracy, there is no legal mechanism for creating a non-democratic firm
> If the employed and employing legal party is the same, it is reasonable to think of that as joint self-employment
Its not the same in a co-op.. The employed is you, as an individual. The employee is a large collection of people of whom you are only a small voice. Sure if you are the sole owner and employed you could make that argument. But in a co-op the collective is hardlyt he same as the individual. So you still have a employeer (the whole governing body) and the employed (you) in a relationship you may or may not like.
@freemo @jeffowski The terminology isn't that important.
In the democratic worker coop economy, I mentioned there is no way to create a non-democratic non-coop firm. Would you consider such a system capitalism where it isn't possible to have someone work in a company without getting control rights over management?
@freemo @AdrianRiskin @jeffowski
Since 1980, Bowley's Law is broken, and wealth inequality increases.
This is because business owners have been creating less value, and simply taking more as rentiers. It is a business trend of cost cutting, rather than serving the market better. It starves the flow of circulating currency, and often takes the form of reducing labor costs. Lower wages. More dividends.
Massive hoards undermine the entire economic system *if they don't ever get spent*.
Wealth inequality is not an issue, what is an issue is the quality of life of those with nothing. This difference is huge.
@freemo @AdrianRiskin @jeffowski One doesn't get to be a ten-millionaire without being a capitalist business manager. But one doesn't get to be a hundred millionaire without also being a feudalist rentier as well. And that line is easily crossed, simply by deciding to take business revenues as the owner share, rather than paying it out as the labor share.
Once one decides that the employees should struggle and stress, what does it matter how much is doled out to them in charity?
One doesn’t get to be a ten-millionaire without being a capitalist business manager.
No only is this not true, we have plenty of counter examples. The dictators that have run many of the worlds most oppressive non-capitalist countries have been far richer than event he richest billionairs.
Stalin was massively rich, Kim Jong as well. Neither of whom did so through capitalism.
It is quite clear capitalism is not needed, nor the most effective way to get insanely rich.
@freemo @AdrianRiskin @jeffowski Whether that business revenue is more rightly paid out to the owners or the laborers is a matter for moral debate, but as far as the current laws go, the owners and managers seem to be doing the bare minimum for compliance, if that. Naturally, this fosters resentment among the workers that have no other meaningful recourse, especially with union busting and anti-welfare rhetoric.
As it is, the bottom end of the middle class is crumbling into poverty.
There are plenty of issues regarding wealth and equal oppertunities. Companies are under no obligation to pay out its extras to its employees. But doing so to some extent is often int he best interest of the company.
@freemo โ the existence and allowance of billionaires fall hand in hand with homelessness and hunger.