Unconditional basic income isn't just dollar bills. It's freedom, trust, security, and power. It's a world where your value isn't measured by societal expectations. The old regime shivers at this shift – they'd sooner dub us idle than confront their fear of an unleashed and empowered society.
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@scottsantens Support should be conditional, not a free ride. I will always support good conditional welfare programs but UBI is not the right solution or direction to our problems.
@freemo @scottsantens I used to believe this, but then the means-testing becomes a massive mess and subject to abuse. It's much much much cheaper to just give everyone a chunk and be done with it. "You a billionare? Here's your UBI. ". "You on the street? Here's your UBI"
It's not a free ride either. It's the difference between life and death for a lot of people.
And a LOT of families and friend groups have someone who's just beyond help. They just can't support them anymore due to drugs or mental issues or whatever, but feel horrible knowing they're on the street. To be able to have my idiot cousin come to me and say, "hey, I need some money to eat", and me being able to say, "Dude, you get $x.xx each month. That's enough and you need to stay the F away from me and my family".
It's either UBI (which I honestly don't think will work well enough) or public housing/food/medicine at some level where the biggest drug addicted idiot on the planet STILL won't be crapping on my front doorstep.
The means testing can be a source of abuse and expensive.. but since it results in actual positive results, its worth it even if it costs more.
The whole argument that its cheaper to just uncoditionally give out the money is a poor one because we shouldnt be trying to make our help programs aas cheap as p[ossible, we should be trying to make sure they do less harm by not enabling people and ensure they do good by requiring the people get out of homelessness by putting conditions on the money that require them to be on a path out of homelessness.
> This idea that giving someone support money or basic services is just enabling them is a falsehood that's been pushed heavily over the years, yet debunked just as effectively as trickle down economics.
Just saying a thing wont make it true. Anyone who has actively tried to help people know this is fundemental. Just giving most people free resources rarely help.
Not to say they wont help for some people. It is usually the people who never wind up homeless, the people who get help early on before it gets too bad. But thats because the act of the getting help itself is a minor show of responsibility.
> I was living in an abandoned school bus and got the Catholic church to just give me free food. no questions asked.
Food is different and I didnt address that. Food in the form of soup kitchens should be free and paid for. Simply because food is something you need now and need to function. So if the argument is just for free food then yea I am fine with low barrier access to soup kichens. I also wouldnt mind the government sending food boxes to more remote people.
> When I got a job, I tithed 10% of my income for a decade.
Thats very nice of you, and i am glad you gave back. (not sarcasm)
> For years, I lived in a house that is a family home and I didn't pay rent. I started a business and now have 2 offices, employ several people support a wife and 3 children, even taking on a foster child and supporting other family members in need.
We both started from poverty, and there is nothign wrong with that, im glad for you.
> Did that free food and rent cause me to be a layabout or did it enable me?
Your personal expiernces dont represent the whole, nor is it necceseraly presented in an objective way (I wouldnt know as I dont know you, but its a fair bet).
Also was it truely free? If you had refused to work and just freeloaded and smoked weed fall day would they still have given you a place? Or was the place they gave you conditional on you showing an effort?
> I don't think that everyone should get a free-ride, but I think people fall down and when they fall *all the way* down to drug addicted homelessness, that's easily avoidable if it's clear that there is a minimal level of food, housing and medical care easily accessible.
We agree, I am agaisnt UBI (free money for everyone all the time no conditions). I am all for reasonable conditional welfare.
@freemo @scottsantens
This idea that giving someone support money or basic services is just enabling them is a falsehood that's been pushed heavily over the years, yet debunked just as effectively as trickle down economics.
I was living in an abandoned school bus and got the Catholic church to just give me free food. no questions asked.
When I got a job, I tithed 10% of my income for a decade.
For years, I lived in a house that is a family home and I didn't pay rent. I started a business and now have 2 offices, employ several people support a wife and 3 children, even taking on a foster child and supporting other family members in need.
Did that free food and rent cause me to be a layabout or did it enable me?
I don't think that everyone should get a free-ride, but I think people fall down and when they fall *all the way* down to drug addicted homelessness, that's easily avoidable if it's clear that there is a minimal level of food, housing and medical care easily accessible.