The idea that it's justifiable to let unspeakable suffering within your community continue when you have enough excess (meaning losing it wouldn't affect your overall quality of life) resources to stop it, just because those resources "belong" to you and you shouldn't be expected to give them up unless you get something better in return, is absolutely the most selfish, morally bankrupt and evil foundation for a society that always leads to fascism eventually.
#Capitalism
๐ณ๐ฑ
Agreed, people who dont donate their time and money to help charities, especially when you have excess, is morally dubious at best.
Not sure what that has to do with #Capitalism however.
concentrates wealth and resources into the hands of a few rich individuals
Yes, though, it distributes fairly based on their contribution to society when operating in a healthy way. Societies dont have an equal distribution of people contributing equal utility, ergo you should see unequal distribution of wealth in a healthy government with a typical population.
which is what leads to the kind of conditions that the OP is talking about
Fully disagree. Uneven distributions of wealth does not, in and of itself, lead to lower quality of life or less charitable works. In fact, it has been objectively shown that rich people give significantly higher percentages of their income to charity than middle class or poor.
where wealthy people hoard resources for themselves and refuse to give any to others
That does not line up with reality IMO. Very few rich “hoard wealth” which would look like a mountain of resources sitting in a vault collecting dust (such as useful minerals, or other materials useful to society). In fact they dont even tend to hoard money itself. Almost all rich people have all of their money actively in the community and used for social utility. For example in investment in businesses. No person who hoarded wealth would be rich because wealth looses value with time. You only become rich by not hoarding wealth (putting your money out into the community, at a risk of loosing it or getting a return).
@freemo @Radical_EgoCom @Vincarsi Missing their whole point it seems.
Feel free to clarify then, ill do my best to understand what I missed.
Note: most people confuse missing one's point with not agreeing with it. So please be careful you didnt make that mistake here, its a vital difference.
@freemo @Radical_EgoCom @Vincarsi Even if you don't include america. Capitalism in every conception creates inequality. Not just in the context of incom. But in the context of access to resources. Even in some of the european countries non-citizens are forced to pay out of pocket for healthcare. No human should be denied treatment. So no, contribution hardly matters. The market decides your worth, which is arbitrary and non-sensical.
Even if you don’t include america.
Agreed, I am not including america here specifically. I am speaking of capitalism as a whole (which would include the whole of the EU, the UK and the overwhelming majority of countries world-wide).
Capitalism in every conception creates inequality.
It doesnt create inequality, it fairly rewards people for the amount of utility they give to society. Since people give utility to society unequally, this means people are fairly rewarded and those rewards are unequal.
Capitalism (when healthy) provides equity (fairness) not equality (everyone event) which is exactly how it should be!
Not just in the context of incom [sic] But in the context of access to resources.
Agreed, and this is a good thing. People who provide more utility to society should have access to more resources since they have proven to be more effective in converting resources to utility.
Again equity over equality. The bigger issue is if people have the same access to opportunity. In other words, if you can demonstrate you provide utility to society will you have the equity of having access to the resources you have demonstrated you earned. A healthy capitalism does just that.
Even in some of the european countries non-citizens are forced to pay out of pocket for healthcare.
If you can afford healthcare you should be paying for it out of pocket. If you cant society should help you with welfare programs. A capitalism does not preclude social welfare.
No human should be denied treatment.
Agreed, and when a capitalist government provides healthcare to those who cant afford it, they are still a capitalist country. Capitalism is not mutually exclusive with social welfare.
The market decides your worth, which is arbitrary and non-sensical.
No it doesnt. It defines your access to resources, and it isnt arbitrary, it is based on the utility you provide to society (in a healthy capitalism).
The fact that you think a persons worth as an individual is synonymous with the resources they have access to is a very concerning POV.
To clarify; "healthy capitalism" is not what the socialist/communists calls "capitalism". We have today a state-induced power structure that breeds off capitalism (unhealthy) for power and control.
What is sickening to me is that said socialists/communists in practice want to get rid of the "good part" (capitalism) from what we have today and keep the "power and control" to micromanage the population to starvation, when the capital runs out.
If a capitalism isnt healthy then it isnt a capitalism. So they are using the wrong term.
The fundamental tenant of capitalism is a free market where all players are judged not on who they are or their power, but by the utility they bring alone. If you have an exploitative system then you dont have a free market (as someone is in control of it) and therefore do not have a capitalism to begin with.
We on the capitalism side agree on this, but my point was that when socialists talk about capitalism, they mean the crony-crapitalism we have today (where billions of loot...I mean taxes...are handed out to BigCorps), and therefore the subject can't even be discussed in a honest manner.
Yea I get that... my point to drive home to them (not you) is "that isnt what capitalism is at all, you can't just make up words" :)
@freemo @niclas @aeleoglyphic @Radical_EgoCom My issue with this whole debate is that I was calling out a real problem with the real economic system I am affected by in reality that calls itself capitalism, and you jumped in to defend the hypothetical version of capitalism that can't exist in a pure form so it's irrelevant to my critiques and deflects the point. I want to engage with people about the reality we're facing and discuss potential solutions, not have my energy wasted on pedantry.
Difficult to discuss solutions, if the problem can't be properly defined.
Properly framing the problem (which includes clearly defining the terminology) is usually the most important step in reaching a solution. It is also the step most often dismissed as pedantry when it is anything but.
My issue with this whole debate is that I was calling out a real problem with the real economic system I am affected by in reality that calls itself capitalism,
Again there is no such thing as a “system called capitalism”… capitalism is a tenant, a small component in a complex system with countless components. Its more accurate to say you are identifying real problems in a complex system of government. One of its many tenants includes capitalism among them.
The important aspect of my initial response, which directly address the context without going onto a tangent at that time, was that your system of government being shitty has nothing to do with it having a principle of capitalism among its principles, but rather other factors dealing with complex and subtle elements.
and you jumped in to defend the hypothetical version
No that came later as people had various clap backs at my input, and then we down the rabit hole into discussions that expanded on various ideas and explored them. This was not the case for my initial response. But ultimately diverging into this deeper dive shouldnt be problematic in anyway. That said, you could always have asked me to politely disengage and I would have been more than happy to honor that. You did not, we continued
that can’t exist in a pure form so it’s irrelevant to my critiques
No tenants can exist in pure form, as no tentants are systems… Communism, socialism, corpacracy, capitalism… any tenant you list are just singular ideas, not a single one of them can exist as pure systems of covernement because not a single one of them is a system of government on their own. We do however have tons of examples of system of governments that include some combination of those ideas within their system.
So yea, it cant exist in a pure form, neither can anything else, that doesnt make it irrelevant to your critiques, it just makes your critiques poorly formed (in my view, others may find them well formed). You absolutely could have critiqued it in a way that would have been entierly relevant to any critiques, its just to do so you’d have to stop insisting it was a whole system and recognize it was only an ideal that can be used as a principle in some systems.
and deflects the point.
It doesnt deflect the point, it does however require you to refine the point to incorporate the new information I am present. A re-framing of your point to the new information very well could have had a more valuable and fruitful discussion (in fact a few others were able to do that more successfully IMO)
I want to engage with people about the reality we’re facing and discuss potential solutions, not have my energy wasted on pedantry.
Exactly, which is precisely my goal as well. Which is why it is so important i push you to stop making dogmatic idealized arguments and recognized the complex nuance of these systems so we can do just this, discuss real potential solutions rather than wasting time on pedantry.
ยซPeople who provide more utility to society should have access to more resources since they have proven to be more effective in converting resources to utility.ยป
Someone who believes this ought to support a very different system from modern-day โcapitalismโ.
For example, one should support taxing inheritance at 100%, since proof of effectiveness at converting resources to utility is not hereditary.
One would also have to support the abolition of rentier income of all kinds, because mere ownership of a resource does not contribute to the productive process.
Whether or not rentier income can in practice be clearly distinguished from productive profit does not detract from the point that rentier income is incompatible witht he principle of distribution based on effectiveness at converting resources to utility.
being a landlord is not "mere ownership of a resource".. The resource is the land, the utility you provide is the livability of that land. You are providing the maintenance of the building, keeping it up to code, repairing damage due to natural disasters or renter abuse, hell at one point you had to even build the building, not mention maintaining the physical land (removing trees and overgrowth, repairing fences etc).
Landlords very much are providing a utility from a resource.
Yes, of course, a landlord does managerial work that should be compensated. But ownership of the building is not necessary for the ability to do that managerial work, nor is doing that work required for the legal entitlement of the collection of rent.
The landlord isn't even usually the person who built the building or repairs the fences.
Yes, of course, a landlord does managerial work that should be compensated.
Cool we agree there at least.
But ownership of the building is not necessary for the ability to do that managerial work, nor is doing that work required for the legal entitlement of the collection of rent.
I dont recall anyone saying it was necessary that the owner of the resource be the same person who is deriving utility from said resource.
These can of course be complete separate resources. In which case the person who owns the land is providing the utility of selecting/screening the most effective managerial service. The managerial service is then outsourced to do the actual management. In this case the utility is provided in multiple steps is all. But the landlord and t
he rental service are still providing a utility.
The landlord isn’t even usually the person who built the building or repairs the fences.
Not always, and as I just covered when they are separate then the landlord is providing a different utility than the managerial service. But both are still providing utility.
ยซIn which case the person who owns the land is providing the utility of selecting/screening the most effective managerial service.ยป
Of course, but that work could be provided by anyone. The tenant. The government. A tenants' union. It takes no special skill and neither does it require ownership of the building.
The only reason it's the owner who gets to do that job is that they're legally entitled to. And somehow that entitles them to rent.
Of course, but that work could be provided by anyone.
It absolutely could… Any case of a resource being turned into a utility could be done by anyone. The point here is in capitalism the people whoa re most effective at converting resources to utilities are the ones who get assigned those abilities through the free-market pressures that drive it.
If a tenant were as good or better than the landlord at driving utility then in a healthy capitalism they would be a home owner and not a renter, thats the whole point.
A tenants’ union
Nothing stopping such an entity from existing in a capitalist government. The key is such an entity will only exist (for long) if they can provide such a utility better than everyone else.
It takes no special skill and neither does it require ownership of the building.
It absolutely does take special skill. Evaluating the quality of a managerial service and who you defer such services to is very much a skill. Pick a bad service and you loose everything (as you provided bad utility), pick a good one and you thrive. You also need to be ready to switch services should your current service decline in quality.
The only reason it’s the owner who gets to do that job is that they’re legally entitled to.
No that isnt the only reason. They are legally entitled to and provides the best utility in doing it. If they were only legally entitled to but didnt provide good utility they would pick a poor service and have lost their property as a result, which would mean a newer better landlord would take their place that can provide that utility better.
You're making a very strong assumption that resources would get distributed to whoever can best turn them into utility.
Do you have a specific mechanism in mind through which this happens? Or is it just magic?
You’re making a very strong assumption that resources would get distributed to whoever can best turn them into utility.
Yes I am. If you dont then you dont have a healthy capitalism. The assumption here is you have a healthy capitalism, which i defined as a free market (a market where utility is the determiner of profit, and is not gamed by centralized interests).
Do you have a specific mechanism in mind through which this happens? Or is it just magic?
Not magic, yes. But systems of governments are hugely complex pieces of working machinery. While we can discuss the tenants (such as capitalism, social welfare and others) the specific mechanisms are huge complex and would require an exorbitant amount of time to exhaustively discuss. That say, I am willing to discuss any specific aspects you’d like to challenge as I have so far done.
Snark, not a serious question
@freemo @magitweeter @aeleoglyphic @Radical_EgoCom
So basically you're asserting that Capitalism works perfectly when it doesn't interact with reality?
Snark I dont mind. But the employing the red herring fallacy (grossing mischaracterizing a persons stance to be the opposite of what is said as some gotcha to appear to create an illusion of “winning)… honestly based on your comments up until now I’d like to think your better than that.
That said at least you had the good sense to point out it was snark rather than a fair evaluation. So i can be a little less critical of it. But it certainly isnt helping your stance IMO.
ยซa free market (a market where utility is the determiner of profit...)ยป
This sounds like an incredibly difficult, if not impossible, thing to achieve. I for one don't see a way to achieve it without outright abolishing private property as we know it.
This sounds like an incredibly difficult
Most governments eventually fail no matter what ideology they employ, this is true of capitalist, communistic and everything else. Yes governments are incredibly difficult to do successful. No argument there.
I for one don’t see a way to achieve it without outright abolishing private property as we know it.
Its been done, and those governments have all failed too. Even when they are democratic they have literally been voted out of existance by the massive starvation it tends to result in.
So we have very clear proof that simply enacting such a policy in a government system will absolutely not be a magic fix for these ills.
Let me clarify what i meant. I didn't mean just that it would be difficult in practice. What i meant is that not even in theory is it clear how ยซa market where utility is the determiner of profitยป could be made to work.
Let me clarify what i meant. I didn’t mean just that it would be difficult in practice. What i meant is that not even in theory is it clear how ยซa market where utility is the determiner of profitยป could be made to work.
From your perspective that is very understandable. I would completely expect that it would be unclear how it would work in theory, because as I said the theory is extraordinarily complex when it comes to any system of government. Since I have not conveyed the full details of such a system to you, due to time and complexity, it is perfectly understandable you dont have that information and therefore it would be unclear.
However from my perspective, as someone who has put a great many man hours into the study of such systems and have considering it in great detail to formulate my stance it is quite clear both in theory and practice. Being complex in no way implies it isnt clear.
It is likewise perfectly understandable you wouldnt just take my word for it, nor should you. The best I can do is answer your questions where you happen to remain confused and alleviate some minor aspects of your confusion and get you closer to understanding. If such conversations go on for an extended period of time you would either come to understand the theory, or find holes in it and thus I would refine my stance further.
Thats simply the nature of complex systems, and it is why governments tend to fail, most people are not good with high complexity, and therefore democracies are a bit paradoxical in that you are trying to get people bad at complex things to be the ones making decisions about complex things. This is why most governments fail.
Given your stated willingness to answer my questions, let me rephrase my last few replies in the form of a question:
How does it come to be that utility is the determiner of profit in a โfree marketโ, whatever that means?
As I pointed out earlier Capitalism isnt a system. It is a base tenant that can be used in the development of systems. The actually system has tons of nuance and tenants that interact. there is no modern day capitalist system, just lots of different systems of government most of which have tenants of capitalism and social welfare as part of such systems (and other tenants as well).
Yes, of course. I've given an example of a policy position that one should support if one holds to the principle that those ยซwho provide more utility to society should have access to more resources since they have proven to be more effective in converting resources to utility.ยป
Specifically, a policy that exists in no countries or territories that are commonly called โcapitalistโ.
It's not a matter of nuance.
@aeleoglyphic @freemo@qoto.org @Vincarsi
Just block @freemo@qoto.org. There's no point in having a conversation with them. All they did was claimed that I was wrong about saying that capitalism is inherently exploitative without explaining why I was wrong, and instead just kept making claims about the competitive nature of capitalism being good for everyone, again, without explaining why. It's like debating with a pro-capitalist AI with a system malfunction.
@Radical_EgoCom @aeleoglyphic @Vincarsi yeah, i stopped with the claim that uneven wealth distribution doesnโt mean a lower quality of lifeโutopian corporatist views have no place in our modern world. People who make arguments like theirs believe the world is a beautiful place and poverty is self-inflicted.
People who make arguments like theirs believe the world is a beautiful place and poverty is self-inflicted.
I beleive nothing remotely of that nature.
I explicitly stated a healthy capitalism must have social welfare programs, that directly contradicts your mischaracterization of me.
I also clearly list in my profile quite a few strong stances that disagree with you, such that all education at all levels should be tax paid, strong and generous welfare systems, free tax paid abortion, etc.
@Radical_EgoCom @aeleoglyphic yeah, brings me back to the days when I learned apologetics for young earth creationism. So convinced you're correct that any evidence someone presents to the contrary just doesn't compute. It's the same kind of dogmatic thinking, except instead of "God created earth 6000yrs ago" it's "Capitalism is actually the best system if people just stopped messing it up!".
A system for social organization that results in such a massive imbalance is not a good system.
I mean your the one who keeps referring to these concepts as monolithic pure ideologies rather than nuanced components of a larger system as I keep indicating.
Projecting much?
My reply to you here quite clearly shows that im the only one in this conversation who isnt dogmatic and actually addressing the finer nuance of the discussion:
@freemo @Radical_EgoCom @aeleoglyphic Does the ideology of Capitalism hold that an individual has the right to withhold access to property they own title to, even if the lack of access results in the death of another person? Yes or no.
Does the ideology of Capitalism hold that an individual has the right to withhold access to property they own title to, even if the lack of access results in the death of another person?
No, in the sense that, the ideology of Capitlism is not explicit on that singular issue. That would depend on your interpretation of the ideal.
The ideal itself is essentially that a markets need to be free of any sort of centralized control. But it does not dictate that such a market can not have regulations that does not represent a single controlling interest.
Some may interpret capitalism to mean “no regulation of any kind” in which case the answer to your question under that interpretation is yes. Others might interpret it to mean “regulation is needed to avoid centralized control” in which case they may interpret the answer as no.
For example the Netherlands is a capitalist country, just like all of the EU. Yet it has a law, roughly translated to anti-crack laws, that says if you have extra homes you are required by law to give them to someone in need to live in them if you cant find a renter at a reasonable economic rate. So int he Netherlands we have an explicit example of a country which adopts the capitalist ideal where the answer to your question is unequivocally “no”.
@freemo @Vincarsi
Concentrating wealth in the hands of a few individuals inherently creates systemic inequalities and power imbalances, regardless of any perceived meritocracy in wealth distribution, and charitable works and investments by the wealthy do not address the root causes of poverty and exploitation perpetuated by the #capitalist system.
> Concentrating wealth in the hands of a few individuals inherently creates systemic inequalities and power imbalances
While the word "systematic" is a bit nebulous here, and not too important, overall I'd say yes, this is true, it creates power imbalance, and that is a GOOD thing.
There should not be equal power, there should be power imbalance. People who have demonstrated they have produced the most utility for society **should** have more power than those who dont. This ensures those with a demonstrated track record of providing utility for society continue to maximize societies utility.
Now the important part, of course, is having the proper checks on those powers. A president has more power than a citizen, this is fine because we have checks on that presidents power, checks that (ideally) ensure that if that power is abused they loose that power.
> investments by the wealthy do not address the root causes of poverty
Agreed. I am not claiming that investments by the wealthy alone address the root cause of poverty. While having wealthy people in a society is a good thing I am in no way proposing it solves all of life's ills. I am also in no way claiming we should be without social programs. All countries in europe are capitalistic for example, most of which also include social welfare as part of their capitalist governance, and that is an important aspect of a healthy capitalist government, but must be done carefully to do right as well.
> exploitation perpetuated by the #capitalist system.
Capitalism doesnt exploit people. People exploit people. And if markets allow exploitation then they arent free markets, and therefore are not capitalist in nature.
@freemo @Vincarsi
Concentrating wealth in the hands of a few individuals creates a power imbalances that favor the wealthy elite at the expense of the majority, and checks and balances within a capitalist system are sufficient to prevent abuse of power that these power imbalances spawn. Capitalism itself inherently exploits workers through the extraction of surplus value from their labor. It's not correct to only attribute exploitation to individual actions and ignore the effects of #capitalism
Concentrating wealth in the hands of a few individuals creates a power imbalances that favor the wealthy elite at the expense of the majority,
Thats a circular argument. Concerntrating wealth creates wealthy people, absolutely, thats the point. It doesnt favor the wealthy, it creates them, exactly as we should want it to (assuming this is concentration is a factor of utility, which in a healthy capitalism it is).
checks and balances within a capitalist system are sufficient to prevent abuse of power that these power imbalances spawn.
Whether they are sufficient or not dependent entierly on the government. Some government lack sufficient checks and balances on power, others do not. There is nothing inherent about capitalism that garuntees these checks and balances are absent.
Capitalism itself inherently exploits workers through the extraction of surplus value from their labor.
Wrong, capitalism provides the necessary utility to workers to allow their labor to have surplus value, surplus value that their labor would not have on its own.
It’s not correct to only attribute exploitation to individual actions…
Agreed, it would be incorrect to attribute exploitation only to individual actions. Which is why i didnt do that, I expressed both the effects of individual actions and collectively (checks and balances are a collective actions).
and ignore the effects of #capitalism
Its not the effects of capitalism, so those arent ignored.
@freemo @Vincarsi
A few individuals concentrating wealth among themselves isn't desirable, at least not to the poor, as it creates a power imbalances that favor the elite. These power imbalances exist because the capitalist system inherently prioritizes profit over the well-being of workers and the community, making checks and balances insufficient in preventing exploitation and oppression. It's not individual or collective action that's at fault, it's the inherent nature of #capitalism.
A few individuals concentrating wealth among themselves isn’t desirable
It is if those individuals are providing the most utility to society. Absolutely it is.
at least not to the poor
Even to the poor. A society that maximizes utility of its resources benefits the whole of society when that society has equity (instead of equality). Which as I said is an element of a healthy capitalism.
as it creates a power imbalances that favor the elite
No, it creates power imbalances that favor the people who add the most utility to society, making them elite. Which again, is exactly what we want.
These power imbalances exist because the capitalist system inherently prioritizes profit over the well-being of workers and the community
Incorrect. capitalism inherently prioritizes utility, profit without utility doesnt exist in a healthy capitalism. As for the well-being of workers, you only get maximum utility if you have healthy workers, ergo a healthy capitalism will not dismiss the health of its working populace.
making checks and balances insufficient in preventing exploitation and oppression.
Since your prior was wrong your posterior is likewise wrong.
It’s not individual or collective action that’s at fault, it’s the inherent nature of #capitalism.
Since you are repeatedly mischaracterizing what capitalism even is this conclusion falls flat.
@freemo @Radical_EgoCom you're mischaracterizing capitalism as something that doesn't have inherent flaws.
The very fact you keep talking about "healthy capitalism" belies that you know you're talking about a fantasy where all of the problems with capitalism are magically solved. I'm not interested in a system that's only good if everyone does it right. The world has been brought to the brink of destruction under capitalism, it doesn't matter what it's like healthy when it's so easily sickened.
you’re mischaracterizing capitalism as something that doesn’t have inherent flaws.
No I wouldnt say so. I am not claiming its flawed or not. Capitalism itself is one ideology, as with all ideologies it does not and can not exist in a bubble. There is no such thing as a “pure capitalism” because a capitalism is one among many principles that must be combined to form a government.
Flaws arise in how one combines the various principles available to them to form a system of government than incorporates those principles.
As I have mentioned many times I continually assert the adjective “healthy capitalism” to distinguish it from unhealthy capitalism, which can certainly exist as well (and have plenty of flaws). What makes a capitalism healthy or not comes from the nuance in how one combines principles along side it.
The very fact you keep talking about “healthy capitalism” belies that you know you’re talking about a fantasy where all of the problems with capitalism are magically solved.
Quite the opposite, if I thought capitalism was perfect as a pure ideology without the need for any other principles or nuance then I would not need the adjective “healthy”. The fact that I am using that adjective is exactly the evidence that it isnt a fantasy and that I am well aware that unhealthy capitalism can also exist.
I’m not interested in a system that’s only good if everyone does it right.
Since capitalism is not a “system” it is a pure ideology, and a system only comes about when you combine principles and nuance to create an overall mechanation this statement is nonsensical to the context.
The world has been brought to the brink of destruction under capitalism
The world has been brought to the brink of destruction under quite many principles in play, many of which have had unhealthy manifestations. This includes communistic countries (which also are equally nuanced).
it doesn’t matter what it’s like healthy when it’s so easily sickened.
Agreed, which is why the overall system selected must be one that is not easily sickened.
@freemo @Radical_EgoCom @Vincarsi
I understand your reasoning and why you think that way, but I wholeheartedly disagree with most of your conclusions.
Certainly nothing wrong with disagreeing.
Of course without further comment other than that im not sure stating as much adds much value to the dialog. But that said I do appreciate you sharing your stance on the issue all the same.
@freemo @Vincarsi
#Capitalism concentrates wealth and resources into the hands of a few rich individuals, which is what leads to the kind of conditions that the OP is talking about, where wealthy people hoard resources for themselves and refuse to give any to others unless they can benefit financially in some way.