Saying it again to remind everyone...
CIS WOMEN ARE WOMEN.
https://www.npr.org/2024/08/05/nx-s1-5064358/olympics-womens-boxing-imane-khelif-lin-yu-ting
π³π±
Huh? Who claimed that CIS women arent women... I've literally never hard that claim.
@Raccoon @freemo TERFs like to hide behind two shields:
1. Lived experience
2. Stop transing our tomboys
Imane Khelif objectively lived as a woman and learned to fight because of it. And became a tomboy. She fits the fake definition of what a TERF would still consider a real woman.
But, surprise of surprises, the bigots don't provide gatekeeping measurements because they'll abide by them. They provide them to distract with false notions of good faith.
@nus @freemo
This really speaks to the moving around of the goalposts of the anti-feminist movement on the "What is a Woman?" line they keep pushing. What is even the criteria here?
They talk about "male development", so we say, "Ok, only assigned-at-birth women." But then they disqualified several African women over the years for "hormone levels", and now they're going after an Arabian woman who beat a Russian woman last year saying "no, not woman enough, don't ask us to prove it."
At the end of the day, we have to decide that cisgender women are women, and that we're not moving the goalposts anymore, no matter who it's politically inconvenient to.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrenology#History
@Raccoon @freemo I don't even think the "adult human female" crowd buy their own bull any more. That's what Matt Walsh says when he defines a woman, but I'm afraid to ask what he thinks an adult is.
And what is an Olympian if not somebody who is exceptionally gifted in some physical way? I thought that was the fun of it, seeing who was the best at a thing.
Not demanding participation trophies be given to great but not winning performances.
Imane Khelif is a cisgender woman: she was born and raised as a woman, and has competing for over 5 years as a woman.
Oh this is about that boxer… yea of course she is a woman, any claims to the contrary are idiotic. She was born and identified as a woman and has always identified as such. She is a woman.
The Russian government claimed she failed some sort of secret “gender test” to have her disqualified after she beat their champion in a tournament last year, and now people are calling her a “man” after a recent 1st round knockout.
This is where it departs from the news I’ve heard. Had nothing to do with the russian government, wasnt a secrete test, but she was disqualified.
The test you are refering to was a non-secret chromosome test that was conducted at the 2023 world boxing championship in India. So not russia. The test was public at the time and disqualified two contestants including her.
I should point out that while the news reports it as a chromosome test the actual first-source info I could find only specifies the gender test is not a testosterone test. They do not however specify the specific reason they fail the test for obvious privacy reasons. That said it does seem reasonable the news is correct that it is a chromosome test.
…but she’s not a “man”, she’s never been a “man”, and no one thought of her as a “man” until she won against a Russian…
She’s a woman.
I totally agree she is a woman in every way that matters. That said it does appear she may be intersex, and perhaps only now is finding out about it. Is she still a woman, yes, of course. But if the news is to belevied she is a woman who happens to be intersexed (and probably never knew it), as in, she physically has the characteristics of a woman but has the DNA of a man. I would still call that a woman.
That said, should she be competing in woman’s sports? I mean, I guess that would depend on why we have woman’s sports. If the logic is that men have a physical advantage over women, then perhaps not, as that chromosome gives her that same advantage potentially.
On the other hand if the reason we seperate out sports by sex is for some other reason, like to avoid inappropriate touching or to give women better recognition by giving them their own space, then I’d say she should not be disqualified.
Me personally, I’d do away with woman’s sports all together. Use weight classes or skill level to pair up similarly matched people, call it a day.
@freemo
> "the news is to believed she is a woman who happens to be intersexed (and probably never knew it), as in, she physically has the characteristics of a woman but has the DNA of a man"
There's no evidence of this. It is a claim being tossed around by racists and misogynists who have a political motive with no source, nothing to point at other than "Doesn't look feminine enough for me". And even if there were, that doesn't mean she doesn't have 2 X chromosomes.
> should she be competing in womanβs sports?
She has done so for her entire adult life without anyone having an issue until she beat a Russian.
> that chromosome gives her that same advantage potentially.
It does not. Even if she has a Y Chromosome, which again, THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF, that doesn't mean it's expressing. In fact, the fact that she is physically female without medical intervention tells us it couldn't be, even if she had one.
> Use weight classes
They do. She is a women's lightweight.
There’s no evidence of this. It is a claim being tossed around by racists and misogynists who have a political motive with no source, nothing to point at other than “Doesn’t look feminine enough for me”. And even if there were, that doesn’t mean she doesn’t have 2 X chromosomes.
No, there is evidence.
Here is a news source that is from the UK so hopefully a bit more tolerant than a US news source (big hope I know):
“Imane Khelif failed a gender eligibility test due to the presence of certain chromosomes, the International Boxing Association (IBA) has said.”
This has been confirmed by the IBA and the olympic committee as well. Here is a similar source:
The International Olympic Committee was warned in writing more than a year ago that Olympic womenβs boxer Imane Khelif had the DNA of a βmaleβ.
Mark Adams, spokesman for the IOC, confirmed the existence of the International Boxing Association (IBA) letter, leaked to the 3 Wire Sports website on Sunday.
It would seem its not just fear mongering, multiplke sources, including the IBA itself has all confirmed she failed a gender test 14 months prior due to having male DNA.
She has done so for her entire adult life without anyone having an issue until she beat a Russian.
Strictly speaking the issue arose 14 months ago, May 2023 when she failed a sex DNA test and was barred from competing in India. The Olympic committee was notified prior to the loss.
It does not. Even if she has a Y Chromosome, which again, THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF, that doesn’t mean it’s expressing. In fact, the fact that she is physically female without medical intervention tells us it couldn’t be, even if she had one.
I might tend to agree with you there, it may not matter if it isnt being expressed. But thats a hard thing to say.
They do. She is a women’s lightweight.
Right, im saying get rid of sex based classes all together and stick to only things like weight class.
@freemo
The IBA is a subsidiary of the Russian dictatorship, which the Olympic committee expressly does not trust, because they fake stuff like this. The issue that arose 14 months ago, which you are referring to, is the same one I'm referring to: near the end of the tournament she beat the Russian champion and then suddenly they decided that she was disqualified. Much later, someone who works for the Russian government claimed it was because she has a Y chromosome.
Once again, there is no evidence, there is only a non-credible subsidiary of a dictatorship making a politically convenient claim after their athletes failed to make it to the semifinals of a championship.
The Olympic committee already did their own qualification tests, along with the Algerian government, which does not allow any sort of transgender behavior, and has showed her birth certificate on which she is listed as female.
> [A]IBAβs final Olympic downfall was triggered about six years ago when it elected president Gafur Rakhimov, an Uzbek businessman described by the U.S. Treasury Department as an organized crime boss. Rakhimov, who denies those allegations, finally resigned in July 2019, a month after the IOC suspended ties.
Seems legit
I was going to address the finer points, but Im actually rather dumbfounded as you dont just sit there making stuff up just to win an argument, you tend to be better than that… Literally none of what you said is how it went down.. like at all.
The issue that arose 14 months ago, which you are referring to, is the same one I’m referring to: near the end of the tournament she beat the Russian champion and then suddenly they decided that she was disqualified.
You keep insisting on fabricating a russian connection when there was none. At the 2023 championship she did not compete against a Russian, she competed against a chinese woman, Yang Liu . The competitior wasnt russian, the committee (IBA) isnt russian, and the location wasnt russa….
nd then suddenly they decided that she was disqualified. Much later, someone who works for the Russian government claimed it was because she has a Y chromosome.
No the disqualification announcement wasnt “much later”, the gender test, and disqualification took place during the actual competition and was announced sometime prior to march 26th (the earliest newspaper article I could find about it). The competition last day was march 26th and the article already specifically discussed her disqualification, the test, and the announcement as to why.
Once again, there is no evidence, there is only a non-credible subsidiary of a dictatorship making a politically convenient claim after their athletes failed to make it to the semifinals of a championship.
Literally every claim you’ve made to discredit it by talking about russia has been directly contradictory to the reality.. you made many claims about russia (that it took place in russia, that the committee is russian and that she competed against a russian, none of which is true).
So I ask again can you actually show evidence it is tied to russia in some way, cause so far everything you’ve said has failed even basic fact checking…
We agree she is a woman, but man you are totally out in left-field ont he supporting facts.
The Olympic committee already did their own qualification tests, along with the Algerian government, which does not allow any sort of transgender behavior, and has showed her birth certificate on which she is listed as female.
The olympic committee generally doesnt do DNA testing or other gender testing. So aside from a birth certificate they did not gender test. I personally applaud them for this, we shouldnt have gender classes or tests. But they certainly didnt do any testing of their own beyond just checking their stated gender.
@freemo
Imane Khelif is a cisgender woman: she was born and raised as a woman, and has competing for over 5 years as a woman.
The Russian government claimed she failed some sort of secret "gender test" to have her disqualified after she beat their champion in a tournament last year, and now people are calling her a "man" after a recent 1st round knockout.
...but she's not a "man", she's never been a "man", and no one thought of her as a "man" until she won against a Russian...
She's a woman.