@freemo @Murray_N So, what happens if #Hamas attacks #Israel, while in civilian installations? Should the #IDF attack, or wait for them to go outside? I don't think #DaveSmith could have given a palatable answer to that question without forsaking his principles. /2

@freemo @Murray_N Also I do want to be fair to #DaveSmith, I think he did say that #Hamas is bad and has his faults. He views both #Hamas and the #IDF as evil entities, because they both engage in war, and also because when they do engage in war they sometimes break #InternationalLaw. /3

@realcaseyrollins @Murray_N

Wait maybe i confused who dave smith was here... Is Dave Smith the guy who has the british accent and sounds like a wanker relying mostly on appeals to authority? The pro Israel guy? Cause he is who i was talking about.

That other dude that was largely negative about both Israel and Palestine, him I found to be reasonable and agreed with in general however felt his argument was, as often is the case, focusing on the wrong things. Who is doing evil things now is only relevant if we look at the context of the things done to get here.

The most impiortant aspect of my stance is, Israel used the worst imaginable form of terrorism, a form that Palestine has to this day not used (biological warfare). They used it to win, get the upper hand, and trap the palestinians in a horrific state. Only once they used those tactics, and won, and completely suppressed the other side did they even try to pretend to be the good guys (and still fail at even that). It is not the least bit surprising that the underdog would use terrorist tactics that are more mild than the terrorist tactics used against them, now that they are on the loosing side.

If you just ignore the 100 some years of what was done against them and try to play it like just the last year is all that existed you make a very poor and dishonest argument, and its what a lot of people defending palestine keep getting goated into.

@freemo @realcaseyrollins
Douglas Murray is the brit.

Smith is a comedian and a student of the anarcho-capitalist Austrian libertarian school.
A Ron Paulian-Rothbardian……mostly.

@Murray_N

Oh in that case I flip my comments as i though the other guy was Dave... Sounds like Dave was reasonable and the Douglas guy was just being intentionally dishonest (perhaps even with himself).

@realcaseyrollins

@freemo @realcaseyrollins @Murray_N Dave Smith is the American comedian - he's Jewish btw Douglass Murray is the pretentious Brit

@realcaseyrollins

They should do exactly what every other nation does. Go in, but take extra risk in how you do it to ensure you keep the civilians reasonably safe as you do. That means you dont level an area with civilians with bombs, you go in with snipers or targeted amunition and make an attempt to reasonably limit civilian death, even if that puts your own military at a slightly higher risk. Because thats what good people do, they risk their lives for the innocent.

@Murray_N

@freemo @Murray_N That's a reasonable approach I think

@realcaseyrollins

the issue around them leveling an area with civilians in it is certainly a legit concern. But to me the bigger issue and what is more telling is how they intentionally attack, punish, and torture the citizens where there is no military justification. In the 2 years I was there they had a huge region of palestine with power cut off intentionally as punishment. It was one of the huge issues brought up in international court when Israel was to be tried for war crimes and of course Israel refused to even show in court.

Youc an always make excuses as to why they killed too many civilians, and the details are nebulous. But when you have long-standing quality of life attacks directly and intentionally on the people, while the death toll might not be as infuriating, it far more reflects on their terrorist mentality than anything else.

@Murray_N

@freemo @Murray_N

> In the 2 years I was there they had a huge region of palestine with power cut off intentionally as punishment. It was one of the huge issues brought up in international court when Israel was to be tried for war crimes and of course Israel refused to even show in court.

Was that the siege of #Gaza? I remember that. Terrible stuff.

@realcaseyrollins @Murray_N

It was basically done int he 2 years leading up to the Oct 7th attack and was one fo the major motivating factors for the attack.

The other one was that Israel completely disregarded the Palestinian border and were settling Palestinian lands despite the agreement to the contrary and peace. Why would Palestine maintain peace when Israel just comes and takes up land and settles it whenever they feel like it even if they are being peaceful?

@freemo @Murray_N

I wasn't aware of that, the only thing I remembered happening directly before #Oct7 was a journalist getting sniped near the border, which reignited conversations regarding #Israel and #Palestine amongst my IRL circles.

In your second paragraph are you referring to #Gaza or the #WestBank?

@realcaseyrollins @Murray_N

The power was in Gaza, the stealing of land designated for the palestinians was in the west bank. It also wasnt a one-time thing but a repeated pattern of Israel, to steal Palestinian land and settle it during peace time despite agreed upon borders.

You might find this debate more elucidating of Dave's position, and you'll get to hear from a pro Israeli libertarian instead of just pro-Israeli neocos, which is a nice change of pace as well.

https://tomwoods.com/ep-2538-israel-debate-walter-block-vs-dave-smith/

@nicholas how can a Libertarian be in favor of the state of Isreal?

Ah, well if you listen to the debate, I think you will get the best argument.

I don't find Walter persuasive, but I don't doubt his sincerity, and I find the folks trying to drum him out of the Libertarian movement over this to be childish.

@nicholas I was specifically referencing the STATE part. But hey nothing is more libertarian than claiming others are not real libertarians.

Ha! Well that's certainly true!