@freeschool @h3artbl33d the underlying issue always was the network effect, imo fedi is large enough that it can work now.

@jeff @h3artbl33d @freeschool the side of fedi I care about is still pretty small but finding people who aren't gay humorless zealots is getting nigh impossible.

I really wish twitter hadn't changed course since it gives people who would otherwise be on an actual freedom respecting network a sense of false hope.

@RustyCrab @h3artbl33d @jeff
Consider it purification on all fronts

It's natural alignment that reoccurs until the or people education is done more than just teching-up and the heads of snakes changing direction (again).

Consider it purification on all fronts and not too bad to do it again (we're getting used to changing easily and using more atomised code in better things).

@jeff @freeschool

Please forgive me my ignorance, but what exact problem would apub mail transport fix?

@h3artbl33d @freeschool
1) offload storage of mail to the sender (IM2K style mail transport https://wikiless.org/wiki/Internet_Mail_2000?lang=en)
2) tls by default (apub loves https)
3) sender authentication is trivial (web signatures)
4) well defined pre existing protocol with a network effect, without google
5) probably more that i cant think of off the top of my head

@jeff @freeschool Okay,, that makes much sense. Thank you for that and apologies for my initial ignorant reaction.

I do, however, would very much like to see E2EE in apub messages, regardless of Email over Apub (does that naming make sense?).

@h3artbl33d @freeschool apub as a mail transport is nearly perfect as it fits the im2k model like a glove

@freeschool @jeff

If history has shown us anything, it is that the successor to email needs to be end-to-end encrypted. It should not, in any way, be accessible by a mod, admin, host, technician, government or whatever other entity unless explicitly shared.

There have been attempts - like Delta Chat, Mailpile - and with federated protocols like XMPP (using OMEMO), etc etc.

They failed to gain broad adoption. It sure isn't due to

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@freeschool @jeff

a poor UX or complex key management. Deltachat is easy to use, makes exchanging keys trivial to the novice (thanks to autocrypt) and it uses e-mail, so the servers are already there.

Don't get me wrong, I totally like your idea! If it ever were to come to live, it would require support in ActivityPub - so that each fediverse instance can partake in the conversation; not just Mastodon.

Please share the mentioned idea :) My DMs are open.

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@h3artbl33d @freeschool you are solving the wrong problem tbh, image email was just sent via DM over apub.

keep in mind, email is not smtp and it predates the arpa net

@h3artbl33d @freeschool i disagree, email will never and shall never have full end to end encryption. we just need an alternative to smtp to escape gmail and hotmail

@jeff @freeschool

True. I have given up hope for this scenario. Ladar Levison of Lavabit fame was working on something that would give true encryption, including headers, but AFAIK never got pass the PoC stage. Unfortunate - really would like that.

@freeschool @h3artbl33d we can make email encryption sane AFTER we fix the centralization of mail exchange tbh

@jeff @freeschool

I think that the biggest hurdle to overcome is threefold: awareness, laws and alternatives.

Awareness: users should be aware of the implications of going with centralized infrastructure and the privacy issues of eg Gmail.
Laws: perhaps wishful thinking - I deem it possible that Google services become increasingly banned from the EU - like outlawing Google Fonts.
Alternatives: Gmail has a userfriendly UX, we need a comparable UX.

@jeff @freeschool

I am still hopeful that we will get there, one day. I personally notice an increased awareness the past years and an increase for privacy-respecting alternatives. Like Protonmail and Tutanota. But we have to prevent them from becoming the next Gmail, eg, recommend to diversify and decentralize.

@h3artbl33d @freeschool provide a diy apub mx in a box solution with an option to use a premium smtp smart host as an income stream for that project

@jeff @freeschool

You mean solutions like Mail-in-a-Box but with apub mx support - am I understanding you correctly?

@h3artbl33d @freeschool yes, and then add more ux polish and offer an smtp smart host for a premium plan to make interop easier and also give the project an income stream

@jeff @freeschool

Really am into that idea. And perhaps sell some plug and play hardware. Pretty much like now-defunt Helm. The concept was genius - but the execution was a clusterfuck. Closed source and they used Amazon infra to mitigate issues like port forwarding, rDNS records etc.

Could even be done with a small embedded board.

@h3artbl33d @freeschool i am talking about https://github.com/mail-in-a-box/mailinabox

@jeff @freeschool

I know :) Was continuing on the income stream, which can be expanded with selling hardware containing a "plug and play" version for the more novice user whom doesn't want to tinker with installing something.

@h3artbl33d @freeschool idk if the market for that is big enough rn

@jeff @freeschool

The demand for Helm was bigger than they could handle - and with supply chain issues they felt like they had no other choice to close the doors.

I personally wouldn't be opposed to volunteering flashing devices at a small premium, where all the profit goes to the project.

Doesn't have to be custom made PCBs/hardware eh :)

@jeff @freeschool

I have been wanting to do such a service for GrapheneOS phones, but until recenty Pixel phones weren't available officially in my country. Now that they are, defintely going to set that up and donate 100% to the project.

@jeff @h3artbl33d @freeschool

Widespread self hosting email will never go anywhere until MTAs are easy to install and configure. I've been through that hell and pretty much gave up. It's insanely complicated, didn't have to be but it is, and asking for help in "support" forums or mailing lists is very frustrating too because of their arrogance.

@lccmv @jeff @h3artbl33d @freeschool mailwiz makes email setup easy af

@dem @h3artbl33d @jeff @freeschool

You mean this?
.

@lccmv @h3artbl33d @jeff @freeschool no?

@lccmv @freeschool @h3artbl33d @jeff https://github.com/LukeSmithxyz/emailwiz

@lccmv @h3artbl33d @freeschool the base topic here is apub as mta

@jeff @h3artbl33d @freeschool

None of the 12 first posts in the thread mention apub at all. You brought apub into the conversation at the 13th installment and now you say "apub is the base topic"?

I'm not sure I want to discuss with someone who does that.

@lccmv @h3artbl33d @freeschool it's rite here: https://federated.fun/notice/ARGsIIFoJ0mVqerHuK
probably too small to notice when briefly skimming it

@jeff @h3artbl33d @freeschool

That link doesn't work in my browser. I get a blank page. Probably stupid/fascist requirement of Javascript that becomes more common every day. Funny in a situation where people are trying to discuss global technological communication standards.

Anyway, if the thread began earlier than @h3artbl33d's post, I apologize. I only see his post as parent, no prior history.

@jeff @h3artbl33d @freeschool

I used another browser to open the super duper advanced link that not all 2022 browsers can open. @h3artbl33d's post still is at the top. Your mention of apub is in the 12th post.

@lccmv @h3artbl33d @freeschool yea, that is the general area i entered the thread so it's my entrypoint to the convo tbh

@h3artbl33d @freeschool
1) i think raising awareness can be a part of the end user documentation provided in such a mail transport and solutions that include it
2) good
3) some parts of the google ux are shit, like the new concepts added to email that are not compatible with email itself, like unsending. there are a few nice UX for self hosted mail, they just need some polish

@jeff @freeschool

Documentation targetting users is a step further down the road. First and foremost, they need to be aware and able to find the documentation in the first place. Evangelism / activism :)
Yeah, pretty nice. Nextcloud has an ever-increasing footprint, especially within the EU. So lovely to see!
Yeah, true that. Mailpile had a pretty sweet interface, so does Rainloop or the more modern fork Snappymail.