jansegers @jansegers@qoto.org
Webosoof
Joined Oct 2019
Евгений Степанищев
Токи пона
С подачи Ильи Бирмана начал изучать язык «toki pona» («токи пона»). За три дня научился говорить простые предложения и понимать почти всё, что мне говорит Илья.
Такие феноменальные результаты (учитывая, что я его и не учил-то толком) проистекают из сути языка. В нём нет падежей, склонений, спряжений, рода и т.п, всего 118 слов, несколько правил. Сложные понятия строятся на основе имеющихся 118 слов…
Пожалуй, подробно рассказывать о языке я не буду. Если интересно, загляните в «Википедию». За эти три дня я убедился в двух вещах: на токи пона можно сказать всё; и ещё, что куда более интересно — некоторые вещи говорить не нужно. Последний принцип — один из основопологающих принципов toki pona. В оригинале он звучит несколько спорно: «если вы что-то не можете сказать на toki pona, то вам это не нужно».
Как не странно, принцип работает. На самом деле, просто-напросто, после перевода на toki pona понимаешь, что говорить это не нужно. Никаких чудес тут нет — в естественных языках очень много синонимов и способов выражения эмоций, тогда как в toki pona и слов-то немного, а способ выражения эмоций один — специальное слово-модификатор «а». Таким образом, прежде чем сказать фразу, приходится сначала понять что хочется сказать на базовом уровне. И, вполне может оказаться, что фраза ничего не означает.
Вышесказанное отлично иллюстрирует следующая небольшая история. Я спросил у Ильи как в toki pona выражают понятие «неделя». Оказалось, что понятия такого нет. Сказать мне его очень хотелось, поэтому я подумал, а что, собственно, такое неделя, почему в ней семь дней и откуда это пошло́? Вспомнить нетрудно — это семь дней сотворения мира. Таким образом, мы с Ильёй изобрели «неделю» — «tenpo pi pali ali» или «время, за которое было сотворено всё». Возможно, это слово скоро войдёт в официальный словарь сложных понятий toki pona.
Ещё небольшой пример. Предположим, ваш собеседник в аське давно не подаёт признаков жизни. Один из вопросов, который люди задают в этом случае является эмоциональное «ты где?». Попытавшись сказать это на toki pona, вы быстро обнаруживаете, что сконструировали что-то похожее на «ты находишься сейчас где?» («sina lon seme?») и быстро понимаете, что спросить хотели совершенно не это. Разобравшись в себе, вы понимаете, что от собеседника вам нужно следующее: чтобы он вам ответил. Поэтому вы говорите просто «o toki» («говори»).
https://bolknote.ru/all/231/#00
#TokiPona #Russian #lipu_jan #Losi #anno2004
notquitethere | Aug 21, 2015
Sewi Jan! - A Toki Pona Game of Linguistic Magic
You are wizards, holy folk, the Sewi Jan. Each of you knows two words in the arcane language of Toki Pona. With these two words you can change your environment by altering the fundamental building blocks of reality. Together you will go on quests for the people of Ma who will reward you with new words.
Setting
Ma is in crisis. Irresponsible and cruel Sewi Jan from before have made a mess of the universe with their bizarre sense of humour. People have forgotten what magic is and have been tricked into spending their lives toiling for others rather than existing as transcendental energy beings. The last good sewi jan, the toki pona kulupu - the good language committee - have banded together to teach a few words to a new generation of speakers. You are those speakers. If you prove yourself, they will gift each of you with new words as you further the quest to transform the world back to its greater sense of pona.
Character Creation
Name: [this is your name]
Lexus: [pick two words from this list. At least one of them has to be a transitive verb (vt) and at least one has to be a noun (n).]
Colour: [Put your speech in different colours. Red is reserved for magic.]
Background: [The game is set in a contemporary but unspecified city. Tell us a bit about yourself!]
Gameplay
There will be a list of quests with known word rewards. Whoever satisfactorily completes a quest first will get the word. Treat this like any normal roleplaying game, you can do anything a normal human can do. The exception is when you use magic: to speak arcane words, embolden in red like so: Jaki Esun!. The potency of the magic is determined by how many words you know in total (so effects aren't very far reaching to begin with). The precision depends on how clear your intentions are. Generally you'll use your magic to do things ordinary people cannot to achieve your unusual quests.
In the beginning, the following word orders are valid:
Verb - Object (shake cat, heat rice, raise bar etc.)
Verb - Modifier Object (shake small cat, heat white rice, raise steel bar etc.)
Verb - Object Modifier (shake cat explosively, heat rice hotter, raise bar quickly etc.)
Verb - Modifier Object Modifier (shake small cat explosively etc.)
As you grow in power you will learn new and more potent combinations.
Players
Spoiler: Sharayna (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Shaon (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Alurjo (click to show/hide)
toki sona / proverbs
nasin ale
Life path
nasin pona li mute.
There are many good ways. There are many ways to do something. All roads lead to Rome.
ante li kama.
Everything changes. Times change.
mi pona e ale mi, la mi pona e mi. When I improve all areas of my life, I make myself better.
ike li kama.
Shit happens. Problems tend to arise.
ale li jo e tenpo.
Everything has its time.
ale li pona.
Things are good. Life is Beautiful.
nasin ante li pona tawa jan ante. Different paths are good for different people. To each his own.
sina pana e ike, la sina kama jo e ike.
If you do evil, you will receive evil.
suno li lon poka pimeja.
Light is next to darkness. The unity of opposites. Yin and Yang.
jan
Man
o olin e jan poka.
Love thy neighbour.
jan li suli mute. mani li suli lili. People are more important than money.
jan lili li sona ala e ike. Children are innocent.
utala li ike.
Conflicts are bad.
mi weka e ike jan, la mi weka e ike mi.
When I forgive someone's evil, I cleanse myself of evil.
meli en mije
Men and women
lupa meli li mama ale.
The female womb is the mother of everything.
palisa li lawa e mije.
Dick rules a man
meli li nasa e mije.
Women drive men crazy
sona
Wisdom
sin en ante li sin e lawa li pana e sona.
Novelty and change purify the mind and provide understanding.
jan sona li jan nasa.
A sage is a fool. Geniuses think unconventionally.
weka lili li pona tawa lawa. Temporary isolation is good for meditation. To understand something, you need to look from the side.
wile sona li mute e sona. Curiosity gives wisdom. A man learns by asking questions.
pali
Job
o sona ala. o pali.
Stop thinking. Take action.
sona pona li sona sewi ala. ona li sona mute ale.
Real wisdom is not knowledge of the special things, but a little knowledge of everything.
pali li pana e sona.
Work gives experience.
o sona e sina!
Get to know yourself!
toki
Language
toki li pona.
Communication is good.
toki pona li toki pona.
Toki Pona is a good language.
ike
Evil
nasin mani li ike.
Capitalism is bad.
jo ijo li ike e jan.
Property degrades people.
ma
Ecology
o pana e pona tawa ma.
Love the Earth. Take care of the world.
sijelo
Health
telo li pona.
Water is good.
lape li pona.
Sleep and rest are good.
wawa li lon insa.
Strength comes from within. Youth in the heart.
pilin pona li pana e sijelo pona. Positive emotions give health.
nornen | 2015
Concerning the aforementioned propaedeutic value of Esperanto:
Basically studying any foreign language will help the learner to more easily learn other foreign languages in the future. The big step is the first foreign language as it removes some mental blocks and teaches us that (to use Christa's words) "language X is not just English with other words."
For instance in Germany, Latin classes are always praised for their propaedeutic value, saying that if you study Latin then any other foreign language will come easily to you.
What brings more propaedeutic value? A language which is closely related to your mother tongue or a language which is very different from it?
What special propaedeutic value has Esperanto that other languages lack? If we want to promote Esperanto for this reason we should have a good answer to this question. The fact that it is highly regular isn't enough, as there are several (many?) national languages which are highly regular, too (mostly agglutinating or isolating ones).
Why Esperanto and not for instance Mandarin? Or Turkish? Or Toki Pona?
Especially Toki Pona. It is also a constructed language, but never intended to be an IAL. And due to its design criteria it really helps you realize and analyze an important item: the stony way from signifiant to signifié. You don't have to focus on participles, agreement rules, tenses or number, you get down to the very basics of language. sina wile kama soma e toki sin la toki Epelanto li pona lili tawa sina. taso ni la toki pona li pona suli tawa sina.
https://lernu.net/fi/forumo/temo/17078/8
#TokiPona #Esperanto #Latin #PropaedeuticValue #PropedeuticValue #anno2015
TP common compounds
ilo kipisi = knife; scissors; ax
ilo moku = spoon, fork, knife
ilo nanpa = calculator
ilo sitelen = pen; pencil
ilo sona = computer
ilo suno = flashlight
ilo toki = cellphone
ilo utala = weapon
jan ike = enemy
jan lawa = chied, leader; king, president
jan lili = child
jan pakala = victim
jan pona = friend
jan sama = brother, sister, sibling
jan sewi = god
jan sona = teacher
jan sitelen = writer; painter
jan suli = adult
jan utala = soldier, warrior
kalama musi = music
kama jo = get, receive
kama sona = learn
kasi anpa = grass
kasi kule = flower
kasi suli = tree
len lawa = hat
len noka = shoes; trousers
len olin = lingerie
ma kasi = garden
ma lili = state, province, länder
ma tomo = town
ma tomo lili = village
ma tomo suli = city
pana e sona = teach
poki kalama = radio
poki sitelen = television
sike tu = bicycle
sitelen tawa = movie
sitelen ma = map
supa lape = bed
supa moku = table
supa monsi = chair
supa sitelen = desk
telo nasa = alcohol, wine, bear
tenpo kama = future
tenpo pimeja = night
tenpo pini = past
tenpo sike = year
tenpo sike suno = birthday
tenpo suno = day
tomo mani = bank
tomo moku = restaurant
tomo tawa = car
tomo telo = bathroom
wile sona = ask
What sources do you all consider to be "canon"?
janMato | December 2009
Official Sources.
We've got incomplete versions of the tokipona.org site in the Wayback machine since Feb 2002.
We've got the 2009 wiki version, which I think is a public work in progress as of Dec 2009.
Canon by Community Repute: Wikipedia, As much of an authority as it is for anything on Wikipedia
We've got 100s of versions of the wikipedia article since April 2002 and todays version. Today's version can change at any moment and the result will depend on the people who care enough to edit.
Canon by Community Repute: First among equal fan sites
Jan Pije's lessons.
Canon by Data: Attested usages
Attested usage is the various attempts to use the language. If no one has used a particular phrase (or uses it rarely), then it might be wrong. If it has been used over a long period of time, then it might be right. Its the difference between de jure and de facto law.
Canon by Data: Opinion of "fluent" speakers
Its probably an uncontroversial fact that there are fluent Russian and English speakers, who they are and that if asked these speakers can say if a sentence is valid Russian or English. We probably could argue over who is fluent, or if their opinion counts. It might be a while before we can check grammaticality and get consensus from such a survey.
Am I missing any sources of canon, or failing that, techniques for answering, "What is toki pona and what is not toki pona?"
ilo Koje
DiscordGo
A bot to help with toki pona.
pontaoski | 2019
ilo Koje (English)
The ultimate toki pona bot.
Get quizzed on toki pona terms.
Render sitelen pona.
Browse and look up terms from the toki pona dictionary
Browse and look up etymology of toki pona words.
Count numbers in toki pona.
Fast command processing, so you don't have to wait 50 seconds for your images to render.
Paginated embeds keep your server from getting cluttered when users browse through commands.
Quizzes clean themselves up, so you don't fill your bot channel with tons of embeds.
https://top.gg/bot/648638641111040010
#TokiPona #kama_sona #learning #bot #ilo_Koje #DiscordBot #ilo_sona #anno2019
george aka Angrycheese
Sun May 4 15:59:51 49558,
By this point it becomes obvious that this guy knows fucking nothing about languages, be it conlangs or natural languages. Without any logic, the "universality" argument is used when referencing the grammar, ignoring the fact that when esperanto was created, most of the countries with "most commonly spoken languages" were barely known (plus, they are not commonly spoken because
they are universal, they simply have a large number of people speaking them, meaning creating a conlang that pleases everyone is impossible). But then, when adressing the male-female distinction, he completely ignores the aforementioned universality or that most universally spoken (especially european) languages work like this. Striving to achieve nothing seems to be the primary motivator here, hence why toki pona (aka the baby lang) is his favorite. What a joke.
Gilles-Philippe Morin
Sun May 4 15:59:16 49558,
You said Ido is "still extremely Eurocentric". Why do you criticize Ido for not being what it doesn’t strive to be? To me, it would be like criticizing Ithkuil for not being an auxiliary language. Or Klingon for being too difficult to learn.
The Délégation pour l’Adoption d’une Langue Auxiliaire Internationale (Delegation for the Adoption of an International Auxiliary Language) adopted the following declaration in 1907 (translated to English in the Complete Manual of the Auxiliary Language Ido, 1919, p. X):
"DECLARATION OF PROGRAMME OF DELEGATION.
"1. To select and promote the use of an auxiliary international language destined not to replace the national languages in their everyday use, but to serve as a means of communication between people speaking different languages.
"2. In order to fulfil usefully its intended purpose, an international auxiliary language ought to satisfy the following conditions: (a) It must meet the requirements of ordinary social life, and also those of commerce, science, and philosophy.
(b) It must be easily acquired by people having an ordinary elementary education, and especially by the people of European civilization.
(c) It must not be one of the national languages."
Now, your "ranking" of favorite auxiliary languages seems to overlook the fact that international auxiliary languages don’t necessarily have the same goals — and thus the same criteria. Pretty much all of them agree for 1 and 2c; however, Ido is unapologetically Eurocentric with 2b, and could you please explain me how Toki Pona is superior to Ido in regard to 2a?
Ido was one of the first auxiliary languages designed with scientific use in mind. You can read more about that in the book Scientific Babel by Michael Gordin (2015). Notably, many scientists complained that the Fundamento forced them to use the very Latin "hidrargo" instead of the international "merkurio".
For that reason, even the very early Ido dictionaries (1908) contained words such as "acetileno", "akromata", "akumulatoro", "akustiko", "albumino", "atomo", "chankro", "glikozo" and of course… "merkuryo" (now merkurio).
Now, where is Toki Pona’s periodic table? What is "glucose" in Toki Pona?
How can you conceive Toki Pona as being a better auxiliary language than Ido if it cannot even compete with the level of versatility that Ido had in 1908? The truth is, Toki Pona was not designed to replace English in scientific literature. Ido was, even from the beginning.
Finally, as a side note, Ido’s "Eurocentric" system did not block words with non-European origin from entering the language. The word for Esperanto’s "ĉu" is "ka(d)", which according to the Ido-English Dictionary (Luther H. Dyer, 1924, p. 157) comes from… Sanskrit. Many European words also come from Arabic (e.g. adobo, alkaldo, alkemio, algebro, algoritmo, alkoholo, almanako, amalgamo, ambro, admiralo, arobo, asasino, azimuto, azuro, baldakino, baobabo, bergamoto, kafeo, kalibro, karafo, karato, cheko, divano, shako, jirafo, gitaro, hazardo, hashisho, limono, limonado, magazino, matraco, mumio, moskeo, nenufaro, oranjo, siropo, sukro, zero), Nahuatl (e.g. avokado, axolotlo, chokolado, koyoto, oceloto, tomato), Quechua (e.g. kokao, kokaino, lamao, pumao, quinino, vikuno), Eskimo-Aleut (e.g. anorako, igluo, kayako), Arawakan (e.g. kaimano, kanoo, hamako, iguano, savano, tabako), Tupi-Guaraní (e.g. kayeno, jaguaro, manioko, petunio, tapiokao, tapiro, tukano), Aymara (e.g. alpako), Cariban (e.g. kanibalo), Cherokee (e.g. sequoyo), Taino (e.g. patato), Sanskrit (e.g. Aryana, atolo, kandio, shakalo, junglo, mandarino, pantero, puncho), Hebrew (e.g. abako, amen, Babel, kerubo, edeno, jubileo, manao, mesio, pasko, farizeo, sabato, amonito, makadamo, sodomio), Japanese (e.g. soyo), Turkic (e.g. kazako, kalpak, turkezo, yogurto), etc. The fact Ido is based on European languages does not mean the origin of these words restrict themselves to European borders.
All in all, I do not see how an international auxiliary language could be easy to learn, easy to use and easy to understand without being at least a bit Eurocentric in design. Take Chinese for instance. Arbitrarily incorporating more Chinese words into Ido would be pointless, since Chinese itself is mutually unintelligible, it’s strongly tonal (which Ido is not) and it doesn’t use the English alphabet (which Ido uses). An Ido word based solely on (Mandarin) Chinese would probably not even be recognizable to a Chinese person. Ido would thus fare no better than Volapük — which Schleyer deformed especially to make the etymology harder to recognize. In the end, Schleyer’s clever system (that even lacked R to be easy for the Chinese!) rather made Europeans crave Esperanto’s vocabulary and grammar and ended up with… Idiom Neutral and Volapük Nulik.
Vikram Sundarraman
Sun May 4 15:39:27 49558,
Okay, we don't need to get into that whole debate again here. However, regarding your hammer analogy I have only one submission to make. If the hammer was really used properly, we should have certainly ended up handling gender more like Toki Pona (which has no grammatical gender markers at all) or Ido (which handles gender symmetrically). Even purely from the point of view of logic and efficiently, gender asymmetry is a very bad idea and I don't see any valid reason, other than a certain sense of fanatic attachment to a particular cultural notion, for retaining in it a language that hopes to become the lingua franca of the world. If you had a hammer, will you hit the nail head on or sideways? I think the design should default to neutral gender, not masculine or feminine speaking purely from the point of view of simplicity of learning and logical and efficient design.
Mike S.
Sun May 4 15:39:28 49558,
I can't understand why people are always floating Toki Pona in auxlang discussions. Toki Pona makes it very difficult to discuss gender stuff at all.
Since I get the impression that you want to discuss gender issues, why would you and Jan Misali tout a language like Toki Pona? The whole point of that language is to take your mind off of complex and troubling thoughts. It's not meant to serve as an auxlang.
I myself, as a conlanger intending to publish a loglang in the near future, would never implement asymmetrical gender markings, and I would always make
gender marking optional (roots epicene by default) including in pronouns. As for why Esperanto will not change: Simply put, Esperantists consider reform-mongering to be the greater evil.
Ken Collins
Sat Sep 3 14:40:52 50557,
Esperanto is the only constructed language that is not an under-construction language, the only one with millions of speakers, and the only one with native speakers, hardback books, books on subjects other than itself, and is the only one used as the language of instruction in a graduate school for the sciences.
It serves as a base (Ido) or a source (Toki Pona) for other constructed languages. In its 150-year history, it has has developed in the same way and at the same pace as natural languages. The sentence "bonvolu alklaki ĉi tiun legilon por vidi mian mojosan retejon" would be valid Esperanto words and good Esperanto grammar in 1887 (though "mojosa" is recent), but Zamenof would have no clue what it means. Every Esperanto-speaker today knows that it means "please click on this link to see my cool website." Which other of these languages can boast hardback books. books on topics other than the language itself, and its own popular music? Esperanto functions as a living language today. There is really no point in reviewing it here.
https://youtu.be/C9yugFqefP8,
https://youtu.be/vLMeDv7_a0U
https://youtu.be/_aN94LWe9roesper
64imma
Sat Sep 3 14:11:14 50557,
Anthony McCarthy I know you're trying to roast toki pona for it's
impracticality, but I will say that there is a natural language (pirahã), which only has 2 words for numbers. One word for a small quantity and another for large quantities. You may think that it's absurd (because we live in a society that needs larger numbers to exist), but if a language has no reason to distinguish between 1, 7, or 567,492, then of course its number system is going to be rather limited. Toki ponans Do recognize the number system as a potential flaw (such as was mentioned in the toki pona episode), but it's countered by saying that oftentimes, having specific quantities specified is not always important. That's like making the criticism that a turkey baster cannot be used to spray, when that's not its intended use. Toki pona doesn't have numbers for specific numbers, because for its purposes, it's not necessary.
Hans Lee
Sat Sep 3 13:55:04 50557,
Here is my attempt to simply rebut Anthony's points:
1. You say that you cannot talk about math in Toki Pona. However, an average person seldom talks about elaborated maths in everyday communication. This puts
mathematics out of Toki Pona's goal, but this fact in no way makes TP less valid of a language.
2. You argue that TP is incapable of translating literature, and you even gave examples for us. TP is a language made to communicate simply and clearly. As I quote from jan Misali, "it is impossible to talk about things WITHOUT EXPLAINING". TP cannot translate literature easily, because it is not made for it. TP is a language for people around the globe to learn it easily, and get points across when talking to others. There is no advanced vocabulary, making explanation obligatory. This in turn makes it possible for everyone to understand what you say. TP is simple, and it's meant to be.
Cax Attacks
Sat Sep 3 13:44:32 50557,
See the thing is, though, that Toki Pona does exactly what it's set out to do and is still a real language. Since there seems to be a definition issue, could you please create a list of requirements to be a language? I'm really curious as to how you would define a "real" language
Also if you want to get into political talk, if you think that the internet is the reason that American Democracy isn't functioning then you're just plain wrong. It's been fucked up since its creation and only ever barely functioned.
Anthony McCarthy
Sat Sep 3 13:44:34 50557,
A real language has to enable the people using it to conduct their everyday life and fulfill their reasonable requirements for communication or it is not a real language, it is an inadequate code or a game.
What the inventor of Toki Pona intended it to do was to communicate "very simple" ideas. If you want to conduct your life on the level that Toki Pona would enable you to other people would be entirely justified in thinking you were simple minded. The same would be true if you tried to conduct your life with 120 words of English or French or Esperanto (though about 1200 would serve you extremely well due to its word creation capability) or any other language.
Basic English with its vocabulary of about seven times the size of Toki Pona doesn't work very well but it might just barely count as a real language, Special English from Voice of America is notably more successful though I wouldn't want to have to limit myself to it.
Scribble – Learn a New Language in Just One Day – Toki Pona
2015
[...]
Toki Pona consists of 120 words. It takes about net two hours to learn the whole vocabulary. You could learn it during a morning or afternoon. There are many Toki Pona courses on Memrise. So from whatever language background people come they probably find a course for Toki Pona on Memrise. The main Toki Pona course has currently 977 students.
[...]
https://ppalme.wordpress.com/2015/05/13/scribble-learn-a-new-language-in-one-day/
#TokiPona #OneDay #learning #kama_sona #tenpo_suno_wan #anno2015
Conlang Critic
Sat Sep 3 13:43:35 50557,
the most important thing toki pona achieves, imo, is learnability.
additionally, the tiny vocabulary makes it so that in order to say most things, you need to define what they are. this is admittedly less convenient than the traditional "just have a word for everything" approach, but it makes it so that you can't talk about anything in toki pona if you don't understand what it is. this might not sound like an admirable goal to many people, and I get that, but I personally think it's incredible. the only restriction on what you can say is your own understanding, rather than gaps in the vocabulary itself. (unless you wanna talk about math because that's basically impossible)
Alex Hayes
Sat Sep 3 13:32:49 50557,
Did I call any other conlangs substantial? No, I did not. Conlanging as a whole is not substantial as of right now and very likely will never be. The highest quality broken wrench is still a broken wrench; being relatively popular and influential means nothing outside of our little-known hobby.
There are Esperantists worldwide? Wow, that fixes everything! Now there is perfect communication across all borders, never mind that very few of people can talk to each other internationally and are likely in the same demographic, you know, since they have to know what an auxlang is or be raised by someone who does in order to at the very least know Esperanto exists. Never mind that only conlangers and language enthusiasts can talk to other conlangers and language enthusiasts in other countries using Esperanto. Never mind that language enthusiasts tend to already be multilingual. It all doesn't matter because wow, how fucking amazing, a minority of people in one country can talk to an identical fucking minority in another. This excuses literally everything.
And you know, fuck those Konkanis for speaking a language in a different family, it's their fault for speaking an Indic language instead of a Romance, Germanic, Slavic, or otherwise European language. How dare they have a vocabulary that does not correspond to Esperanto's? This is an international language, and that apparently means that it retains vocabulary and grammar from the only languages that matter: ones within a short boat or train ride from Poland. That's international enough for the average auxlang enthusiast, so the rest of the world just needs to suck it up and learn this bafflingly easy language like the rest of us. You speak Mandarin, an extremely isolating language with no European cognates other than modern loanwords? Doesn't matter, and don't complain that Esperanto is fusional because it's just so damn easy and international.
"To compare Esperanto to a national or regional language is to not get the point, at all."
Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot that Esperanto isn't actually a language, I'm sorry for comparing it to languages, it's obviously in its own untouchable category. Just because it has words and a grammar doesn't mean it's a real language, therefore we are not allowed to treat it like a natural language, even if people consider it a "living language". It is simply a word game between European polyglots, except that it's not even a fun word game like the literally demonic Toki Pona.
There, are you happy now? To escape criticism, your language is now in the same category as Toki Pona, which is something that you don't take seriously in the slightest. Is that what you wanted?
Alex Hayes
Sat Sep 3 13:32:19 50557,
I hereby arbitrarily decree that a language must be as precise as Ithkuil to be considered sufficient for communication.
Well, would you look at that, my dearest straight-jacket connoisseur, not only is Toki Pona not a language, neither is any naturalistic language. Maybe arbitrary goal posting is a bad idea? But what do I know, I only fluently speak English, which is nowhere near expansive enough to compare to the soft, loving arms of Father Ithkuil.
(Personally, I'm not certain that everybody in this thread is sober, Andrew.)
http://www.orenwatson.be/anthonymccarthy.htm
#Ithkuil #toki #language #complexity #toki_inteli #konlan #anno2019
dominic maddock
Sun May 4 13:18:09 49558,
Anthony McCarthy you absolute idiot! who said made-up languages have to have speakers, grammar or complexity? the whole point of making a language is that
you can flip the tables, do things a natural language cannot do! a personal language is a personal language, and if it pleases yourself then you have successfully created a conlang.
your problem lies in your fixed mindset, you forget that we are able to do whatever the fuck we want. saying 'your conlang will never be spoken by anyone' shouldn't be an insult, it should be a compliment, that your ideas are unique and complex to you. sure, toki pona is simple, and sure, esperanto is more popular, but we should look past all the hate and see that all of these conlangs were successful in their goal, maybe to please the creator, creator's friends, or speakers around the world.
You Safar
Sun May 4 13:05:49 49558,
tokipona.net works great, in addition to sonjas book. There aren't really an overwhelming number of resources so its acceptable, I think, to just try whatever you come across and see if you like it. Also, make sure to practice talking with other people, there are a few great chats on IRC/Discord/Facebook/Telegram, and probably others
Alex Hayes
Sun May 4 13:05:50 49558,
You Safar
Sun May 4 13:05:51 49558,
That's not a bad point, and you bring up a decent valid criticism of toki pona, which is the choice of certain shared definitions (and even the inclusion of certain words).
I personally learned toki pona mostly through Esperanto, so the inter-language point is intriguing to me. Although I think just memorizing phrases in another language would probably do as much good as learning the grammar and definitions involved with toki pona, it's still funny that both would probably work about as well.
More drama: My personal biggest problem with toki pona is that if someone does not understand something you say in toki pona, it can be almost impossible to explain it to them without resorting to another language, as most of the time it is difficult to find an entirely different way of phrasing something that means the same thing.
Webosoof
Joined Oct 2019
