KREYREN @kreyren@qoto.org

@clay @FrailLeaf @LordMordred @bwk

> I'm done talking about "how long a theoretical function should take." silly.

fine whatever

@clay @FrailLeaf @LordMordred @bwk I don't disagree that a software composed of function could take a lot of time the argument is about the invidual functions that create the software.

E.g. the common fibonacci could take days to finish calculation on INT_MAX or it could take 11.42 ns depending on how you write it

And if that function is used multiple times in a software then this inefficiency will grow exponentially

@clay @FrailLeaf @LordMordred @bwk name one function that has to be faster then ~300 ns

@clay @FrailLeaf @LordMordred @bwk You are using a very specialized usecase with which only you have the personal experience so it's impossible to argue about it as i lack the require information so provide a better example for your argument?

France24 is reporting on Freedom Convoy protest in Brussels.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9NXAS7Ca8I

#France24 #freedom #freedomconvoy #freedomconvoy2022 #EU #EuropeanUnion

So far the Freedom Convoy in the brussels seems to be non-violent and following the law meaning without blocking the roads, honking at the night and violence.

I will support the protest as long as it stays this way.

EU is dedicating a parking lot to which the convoy is currently being redirected so that they do not block the road and get their voices heard.

That said i doubt that this protest will have any effect on the law as none seems to know what do they want, why they want it or bothered to propose any kind of better solution to the current law.

So i decided to take an action on the subject:

The only case in the EU that i find concerning in terms of vaccine mandate is austria that I am currently tracking where people get fined up to 3600 EUR if they don't take the vaccine.
i find this very unethical, concerning and most likely breaking multiple EU's fundamental rights so i condemn the law while proposing to instead follow-up on the proposal by Czech Biologist Jaroslav Flegr and pay people ~300 EUR if they get vaccinated to address the economical and public health concerns (https://qoto.org/web/statuses/107792757995905601)

In terms of vaccine-relavant law in the france i don't condemn it as the way it's written does not forces anyone into a vaccination while protecting the 3rd party from infection-induced harm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lBvvpdEkew

#freedom #freedomconvoy #freedomconvoy2022 #brussels #austria #EU #EuropeanUnion #France #FR #AU #belgium #vaccine #covid19 #covid #vaccineMandate #health

@antares I think that you are misinformed hippocratic oath is taken at all unis that i checked in the last hour and it's violation will revoke the doctor's license depending on how severe it is.

E.g. unintentionally infection the patient vs intentionally harming the patient.

> I don't even know if the Oath is even relevant to dentists, optometrists, therapists, psychologists, biochemists, biomedical corporations anyone/thing who isn't exactly a medical doctor but you can find within or dealing business with a healthcare facility.

Like anyone can claim themselves to be dentist, optometrists, etc.. thus why i said _licensed_ medical professional.

@namark @FrailLeaf

> everyone should be a programme

Amen

> *rust evangelist*

Nah i argue for ppl to learn the basics and theory to be able to use all programming langs

> literally everyone works on open source software

true, also everyone uses open-source software :p

> large undocumented [open-source] projects do not exist

Show me one!

> a true genius worthy of qoto!

you are on goto yourself lol

> Unless you really enjoy solving random deductive puzzles and get a dopamine rush every time a right number pops up on a black and white screen you will not enjoy programming

Programming ain't abacus there is too many things to get dopamine rush from like adding a function that can then be used on your 3D printer etc..

> Propitiatory or open source, in current state of the industry it's all the same

lol no

> undisciplined cruft glued together with bubble gum

That ain't how open-source looks like

@clay @FrailLeaf @LordMordred @bwk

> What if the thing I'm running is doing a merger of all banks in the USA into a theoretical merged institution. Should that function take 300ns?

Calculated to be at average of 12 Petabytes for the last 5 years -> yes.

Banks use a very efficient systems designed for data transfer so i assume that they won't be a bottleneck so they should be able to make the calculations locally, compress it and sent it to you assuming that you have the required permissions to access such data.

So the common excuse of "it's a lot of data it will take few hours" just because you don't know how to optimize the function is invalid.

What takes time on the processing is calling the function multiple times per set amount of time e.g. how compilation works so the efficiency of single component is directly related to the overall efficiency of the solution

e.g. assume a hypothetical scenario of a calculator function doing 1+1 calculations taking 5 seconds -> in compilation you do these kinds of calculations billions time per second (assuming that the compiler 100% efficient to utilize all the system resources) so 5*1B is 5B seconds to process one frame of instructions which will take you 158.4 years to complete thus your function is too inefficient to be used.

@clay @FrailLeaf @LordMordred @bwk

So you spend your time writting a logging solution and then remove it?
How is that anywhere near resource efficient?

If you are in a situation where you need to do extensive testing then someone else will most likely be in the same situation in a later date -> You implement the logging permanently on demand preferably without including it in the build binary if the programming language supports it.

@clay @FrailLeaf @LordMordred @bwk

If your function is so inefficient that it takes longer then 300 nano seconds per run assuming average personal computer system of 2022 then there is something horribly wrong with your code.

i am aware of this being an ongoing problem with python that most likely won't ever be fixed and if you ever run in that situation on python then you should move your codebase to a better solution as python is not a programming language for data science industry..

@clay @FrailLeaf @LordMordred @bwk

If you are ever in a situation where you need to collect a
"logging data for post-analysis" then logging is just about the worst thing to use that for as it has a major impact on the efficiency of the program and you always do this once you understand the code and have established a clean room as without it your logging data will have bunch of noise in them.

Thus the case for benchmark tests preferably using criterion.

@clay @FrailLeaf @LordMordred @bwk

telescope analogy for logging is wrong and i hate that so many people are looking at it like that..

The output is expected to be very descriptive and understandable without depending on skill requirement so i argue for "clear map" instead.

@FrailLeaf @clay @LordMordred @bwk I am aware, but it never helps me when i am footprinting as i don't have established a clear working environment to rely on the output.

@clay @FrailLeaf @LordMordred @bwk

There is no way that it will create a chaos if you run it bootstrapped (unless you are yolo dev to run it on bare metal) and fatal failures are expected to understand the code.

@clay @FrailLeaf @LordMordred @bwk

Alternatively if you are limited on time resources i usually just add `println!("SSSssssssSSss");` to the codebase at random places to understand the runtime evaluation and then regex it out when i am done.

@FrailLeaf @clay @LordMordred @bwk Debugger output will just confuse you most of the time..

When i do footprinting i just fully ignore it.

@clay @FrailLeaf @LordMordred @bwk

I didn't say removing random parts of the code, i said _COMMENTING OUT_ random parts of the code..

meaning comment them, run the program to see what it does and uncomment and repeat until you understand what the changes are doing to document the code.

Adding logging takes a huge amount of resources in comparison to this, but i agree that if the software is projected to be used in a production or mission critical environment then adding logging is well worth the time.

@FrailLeaf Like if you do proprietary development..

..I agree that doing any kind of work on that is flustrating and not sustainable.

@FrailLeaf @LordMordred @bwk

So what's the issue? footprinting of open-source software is very time efficient..

I do agree that java is a torture instead of a language so i can would imagine that lack of documentation is the least of your problems there.