@lupyuen great news. No idea what I'll use Lora for practically but I'm curious to play on it.

@ramob
I'm really curious about the #Pinephone #LoRa case, too. Personally I would *love* to see a #FOSS #privacy friendly alternative to #Tile / #Trackr. I mean, LoRa would have a much better range than Bluetooth, better security I suspect and meanwhile Tile and Trackr have become privacy nightmares demanding always on location tracking and having your phone be used by their network even when you're not using their app.

A LoRa beacon+speaker could be *so* much better!
@lupyuen

@Blort
That would be cool. It'll be awesome to see new ideas/projects take this and run with it.
@lupyuen

@Blort
@ramob @lupyuen
#Briar might support LoRa, however the overall available bandwidth is so low that IM might be really impractical.

@federico3
I can't recall the exact spec/bandwidth right now but yes, I do remember it being really low. Still, it'll be interesting to see what folks do with this iteration of it and what happens in future editions. Even if an element just turns into IRC bridges to Lora haha
@Blort @lupyuen

@ramob
@Blort @lupyuen
according to this, IRC or pure-text IM will be unusable in any city due to time sharing with other users:
lora.readthedocs.io/en/latest/

@federico3
Thanks for the source I'm going to try digging through that in a bit. I wonder if we'll see a resergience of message boards then or if even that would be too much. @Blort @lupyuen

@federico3
Am I reading this right for LoRa restrictions?:
"
If you use The Things Network (free public community LoRaWAN network), the following fair use policy applies:
The uplink airtime is limited to 30 seconds per day (24 hours) per node.

The downlink messages are limited to 10 messages per day (24 hours) per node.
"
It makes sense there's be restrictions but this seems excessive. (Could be I'm just not fully sped up on the full limitations)
@Blort @lupyuen

@ramob @Blort @lupyuen
You are reading it right. LoRa and LoRaWAN are designed for very small amounts of data, e.g. a thermometer sending a reading every 30 mins. I think there's a bit of overselling and hype going on.

@federico3
I was tracking the low bandwidth but I hadn't read the time limitations @Blort @lupyuen

@claudiom and @lupyuen, it *feels like summer* here already, hopefully I won't need to wait till Australian summer!

@claudiom @lupyuen Maybe a fun gadget, but the pinephone's hardware is far far too modest to replace a laptop for any real world use.

@johannes Being the owner of one, I already know that to be true, but that doesn't make it unusable. It's the same as my netbook. I'm not going to use it to do my heavy lifting, but it's still useful for SSHing and doing some lightweight tasks and being more portable than my main laptop. 🤷‍♂️ @lupyuen

@claudiom @johannes @lupyuen my thoughts as well. It's not made to replace a laptop. I see a lot of people complain about the Pinephones specs and comparing it to say, an Android flagship. I view it as a proof of concept device. It's a neat device and paves the way for better options in the future.

@jawsh @claudiom @lupyuen Except for the PP, I only buy used phones, but even my Oneplus One from 2014 vastly outperforms the PP.

For the PP, I bought a USB-C dock to see convergeance in action, but it really is just a proof of concept as performance is just atrocious. I assume, for decent performance one has to spend 700 bucks on the Librem5. Performance has its price. Just that when I place my order, I was blinded to that obvious fact by the hype.

@jawsh @claudiom @lupyuen Still, I am currently trying to use the PP as my daily driver, which does take some discipline. It a way, it is a good thing because with the PP, I don't find myself staring at the screen all the time, as there is simply much less happening.

I still am confident that the momentum now is much stronger than a couple of years back with OpenMoko, and Pine64 deserves some of the praise for making this happen. Still they have an issue with overpromising and underperforming.

@johannes I don't dare consider the PinePhone as a daily driver for a phone. For a portable computer, however, it's definitely better than my Eee PC 901 once that keyboard attachment is up for sale. Again, I'm not going to use this to replace my Core i5 laptop anytime soon, but it definitely has enough performance for me to use on the go for certain things, and surely newer models will have better performance. @jawsh @lupyuen

@johannes I guess the idea here is to provide a cheap-enough device to allow many to develop for, and once there is strong community support around it, begin to introduce faster devices. @jawsh @lupyuen

@johannes And, as @jawsh says, you're comparing it to a flagship-ish phone. My OnePlus 6T cost me almost $600 US when I got it and it's still quite fast. But, I paid what I paid for it. The PP reminds me of my old Nexus 4, which was much more affordable than my 6T even when it was released. @lupyuen

@johannes That was the point of the N4 as well. An affordable device for devs to work on and make Android flourish. Not much different from what the Pine64 folks are trying to do IMO. @jawsh @lupyuen

@claudiom @jawsh @lupyuen I am talking about the Oneplut ONE, not 6T. Their very first model. Way better performance than the PP still. It sold for 300 bucks back then, not so much more than the PP (the 3 gig ram / 32 gig flash edition)

@johannes I am fully aware of that. I'm just making a comparison as a phone for a daily driver. My 6T is my daily driver. The PP is just for tinkering around with. @jawsh @lupyuen

@johannes the OP1 is also running Android which the PP isn't. Kind of comparing apples and oranges. @jawsh @lupyuen

@claudiom @jawsh @lupyuen Wasn't one of the promises of running mainline Linux that you get better performance because you don't have all the overhead Android comes with? Anyway, regardless of what runs on the OP1 (Ubuntu Touch in my case, yes I know, with Halium underneath) the point is that the mere hardware specs are better even though the device predates the PP by 6 years and wasn't sold at a premium price. But ok, maybe I should stop whining now...

@johannes Linux (as in the kernel) yes. Everything else might still need optimizing. It's gotten better in Mobian as they had a significant performance boost in the last few months, but it still needs work. @jawsh @lupyuen

@claudiom @johannes @lupyuen It's gotten better in the few weeks since I received mine. I was using it as a daily driver up until 2 days ago. I put my sim back into my POCO X3 NFC because I brought my youngest daughter to a friends softball game and went out afterwards and knew it wouldn't stay charged without carrying a charger or power bank with me. The added battery in the keyboard should make all day use possible tho. Really the only problem I have with it is the time it takes to open/launch things. I think that will even get better with time as things are optimized and created with the Pinephone in mind.
@claudiom @johannes @lupyuen it's also worth noting that the available hardware to run mainline on a mobile device is almost certainly limited.

@jawsh @claudiom @lupyuen Sure. The choice is currently limited to the Pinephone and the Librem5. I hope there will be many more to folllow, though.

@johannes
$300 from 2014 v. $200 in 2021. 50% more, without even taking inflation into account. You've got a funny definition of "not so much more".

Anyway. Jawsh mentions a limited pool of available hardware able to run mainline Linux. But there's also the matter of volume discounts. PINE64 has sold thousands of Pinephones so far, but I'd wager OnePlus sold much, much more of its OPO. They must be paying a premium because they're buying comparatively low volumes.
@claudiom @jawsh @lupyuen

@normandc @claudiom @jawsh @lupyuen Inflation is so low nowadays that 300 € in 2014 are just 331 € in today's money. fxtop.com/de/inflationsrechner Anyway, my point was that the OnePlus One wasn't a flagship device. It was a good mid-range phone, and compared to that, the hardware of the Pinephone is pretty low-end. Sure, that's how they get to the low price, but that's also what greatly reduces its usefulness as a daily driver, which is what I had naively been hoping for.

@johannes
10% inflation over 7 years may not be a lot, but it's now 331€ over $200 USD, which is now over 100% more. Just saying.

I too wish they could have picked a more powerful chip. But the choices are limited when you want to run mainline Linux and be as FOSS as possible. RPi's require more proprietary blobs. Apart from Allwinner and Rockchip, I don't know of other makers that allow that. The big players aren't interested. Olimex also uses Allwinner chips BTW.
@claudiom @jawsh @lupyuen

@johannes @claudiom @jawsh @lupyuen
PINE64 is working on a new SBC based on a more powerful Rockchip SoC. It's going to be more power hungry too. I bet we'll eventually see a Pinephone 2.0 running this SoC or some variant of it. It's going to take time though, and all that optimisation work will have to be done again from the beginning.

@normandc @johannes @claudiom @lupyuen by that point development will hopefully happen at a faster pace as more people will be using and developing mobile Linux. Releasing in batches causes them to not be able to lower the cost as much but limiting the amount of Pinephones in the wild is good in a way. Helps avoid to many people getting a device labeled as "beta" expecting a daily driver with no issues.

@jawsh
I agree with you completely! In my mind Linux on phones currently compares to the 2005-2008 era Linux desktop. It's still for tinkerers and enthusiasts, but it's going to improve - and probably faster than it did on desktop!
@lupyuen @claudiom @johannes

@normandc @jawsh @lupyuen @claudiom I don't know, I am a happy Debian user since 2001. Sure, when I first installed it, you had to manually write the modelines for your monitor and stuff, but I'd say that around the appearance of GNOME 2 in 2002, things started to just work(tm), and by 2008, the desktop was actually pretty usable for non-technical users. I also think that the challenges for mobile development are very different. I hope you are right, the dynamic is there, but it's no done deal.

Sign in to participate in the conversation
Qoto Mastodon

QOTO: Question Others to Teach Ourselves. A STEM-oriented instance.

An inclusive free speech instance.
All cultures and opinions welcome.
Explicit hate speech and harassment strictly forbidden.
We federate with all servers: we don't block any servers.