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@skells

I think Snowden has always been a Russian asset, but he is sometimes correct.

@amerika upon what basis? taleb just asserts it as if fact, although I admit it's a reasonable suspicion to have

@skells

Based on his profile. Instead of escalating up the chain of command, he engineered as destructive a leak as he could. This is a public optics move.

@amerika isn't it precisely a public optics move that's required

@skells @amerika I'm glad Snowden decided to blow the whistle instead of complaining to his manager. I think the government is way out of line with the spying on it's own people. Snowden and Assange deserve full pardons and a parade imo. Whistle blowers should be treated as heroes when they expose government/corporate corruption or illegal activity not treated like terrorists.

@quasifly @skells

I am glad we know, although nothing came of it precisely because of his method.

You do not simply complain to your manager.

You find the people who are accountable up the chain and write to all of them.

They will fire you, and then whistleblower protection laws kick in.

@amerika @skells If he could have gotten more done through the chain of command I would have been for it. I just assume he would have been shut up some how and the public would not have been alerted.

@quasifly @skells

Unlikely if he was able to reach far enough into the bureaucracy.

Bureaucrats fear coverups at this point, with good reason.

Hollywood loves coverups, but they almost never take the form it uses to portray them.

@amerika @quasifly you get a partial hangout, a mea culpa and nothing changes

which is pretty much what happened

however the public, particularly technically minded members, took what was learned to heart and some mitigating factors were put in place

more generally, does trump run/win in 2016 without snowden and assange's actions?

@skells @quasifly

Once the illegal behavior is brought to light, anyone who continues it is culpable.

Watch the bureaucrats flee.

When you take it public, the organizations defend themselves.

Keep it internal for as long as possible.

@amerika @quasifly bro, these were the orders, this isn't someone shipping in come on the side, this is the agencies raison d'etre

@skells @quasifly

I do not agree. Illegal activities are taken pretty seriously when discovered.

@amerika @quasifly this spying is legal

@amerika @quasifly patriot act

@skells @quasifly

Although I am no fan of this law, it does require some probable cause to be used.

@amerika @quasifly the five eyes just take it in turns to spy on each others citizens

you seem to have a pretty concrete model in your head on how to reform bureaucratic institutions, which I can respect, but it seems to be miles away from the reality on the ground in modern surveillance states

this stuff is perfectly *legal* so there's no need for bureaucrats to run for cover. only radical political reform or asymmetric cypherpunk tactics are likely to change the situation

@skells @quasifly

The question is one of domestic versus international spying.

To spy on US citizens, they still need probable cause.

If that is being abuse, accountability comes into play.

@amerika @quasifly