@organizingInFedi
Interesting article discussing lockin and Amazon "cloud" by somebody who works on it:
tbray.org/ongoing/When/202x/20

Could be create something for cooperatives using Fedi instead of a huge cloud and any co-op could federate with and coordinate their activities with other fedi co-ops?

No lockin, pick from several ActivityPub apps or roll your own.

Why not?

@bhaugen @organizingInFedi It would be interesting to know what the IT challenges are for coops. But so far, all I see is hosting coops who try to use existing bloatware. They pay commercial datacenters instead working with broadband coops. Perhaps I'm missing something, but there do not seem to be dev coops, because if there were any, they would be the place to coordindate this. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

@gert
Several dev co-ops exist, at least a few have Fedi accounts. I hesitate to name any for fear of missing somebody, but if they notice this, maybe they will raise their hand?
But yes, those would be good places to coordinate, or a new dev co-op, maybe a multi-stakeholder incljuding the devs and the user co-ops and the individual users and maybe some of the existing dev co-ops.

@organizingInFedi

@bhaugen @organizingInFedi I'd still like to know, because then the question would be if dev coops would be willing to develop *for coops* ?

@gert
> the question would be if dev coops would be willing to develop *for coops* ?

It would certainly be in keeping with co-op principles. I was investigating how to catalyse this a few years back. The usual problem of funding is solved if co-ops are willing to pay (and ideally share) development costs for software they want. The challenge seems to be one of coordination. Getting clarification of needs, funds, and dev capacity, to all line up.

@bhaugen @organizingInFedi
@mike_hales

@gert One relevant case study, although they're not co-ops as such, is community currencies. In theory, LET'S and timebank groups around the world could share the cost of developing a software platform. This could be combined with a hosting service, or a cluster of them. @matslats 's work on communityforge.net is an example.

@bhaugen @organizingInFedi @mike_hales

@strypey @clacke @matslats @bhaugen @organizingInFedi @mike_hales There really are a lot of people who would like to help, especially in this time of crisis. But they are mostly being ignored. Speaking of ethics and crisis..

@bhaugen @strypey @clacke @matslats @organizingInFedi @mike_hales IMO this case also shows how a distributed datacenter of our own could work together to make something like this possible. The task of sending e-mail can easily be split up in subtasks and distributed to workers anywhere.

OTOH, we should also think about the fact that most of e-mail is sitting in corporate clouds, which is kind of suboptimal. See also this request for comments se.citiwise.eu/index.html?j-ma

@gert
> this case also shows how a distributed datacenter of our own could work together to make something like this possible

Have you looked into Holochain as a potential infrastructure layer for doing this?

@bhaugen @clacke @matslats @organizingInFedi @mike_hales

#Holochain

@tetrislife
I asked about patent and will report back when I get the answer. But in the meantime, here is the license for the code:
github.com/holochain/holochain

@strypey @gert @clacke @matslats @organizingInFedi @mike_hales

@bhaugen thanks for the pointer, I hadn't read their blog on the topic. So, unless they themselves become patent trolls, using their code seems OK. Re-implementors of the protocol aren't there yet, that seems to require trust in them.
@strypey @gert @clacke @matslats@social.coop @organizingInFedi @mike_hales

@tetrislife
We and several other people are building on their code and will raise an unholy stink if they go back on the promises in their license and many public statements.

> Re-implementors of the protocol aren't there yet, that seems to require trust in them.

Most of the code we are developing will work with either Holochain or ActivityPub or some similar protocol to come.

@strypey @gert @clacke @matslats @organizingInFedi @mike_hales

@bhaugen
This blog piece does a good job of explaining how the HoloChain DHT works, but it doesn't really explain why the HC folks think filing for a software patent is necessary to protect HC devs or users from patent trolls.

@tetrislife @gert @clacke @matslats @organizingInFedi @mike_hales

@strypey
> why the HC folks think filing for a software patent is necessary to protect HC devs or users from patent trolls.

This is above my pay grade and IANAL and I was not part of filing for a patent and I would not have done it, but there was another company that filed a patent for using Holochain in a very common business scenario. That could have at least made legal trouble for every Holochain user and dev.

@tetrislife @gert @clacke @matslats @organizingInFedi @mike_hales

@bhaugen
> another company that filed a patent for using Holochain

Ah ok, that makes more sense. A blog piece that tells that story would be useful here. IANAL either but ...

... rather than filling for their own patent, couldn't the HC folks have used the same money and prior art to invalidate the other patent? Wouldn't that create a precedent that could strike down future patent applications involving HC?

@tetrislife @gert @clacke @matslats @organizingInFedi @mike_hales

@strypey
> rather than filling for their own patent, couldn't the HC folks have used the same money and prior art to invalidate the other patent?

I don't know and have had the same thought. But the other patent did not make claims about Holochain directly. Their claims were about using Holochain in a common business scenario.

I'll see if I can find the other patent again so you can read it...

@tetrislife @gert @clacke @matslats @organizingInFedi @mike_hales

@strypey
I suspect (altho I don't know, I was not in on those discussions) that patent trolling is pervasive in hitech circles. I've heard about other defensive patents in that sphere. Just did a search, many many hits.

@tetrislife @gert @clacke @matslats @organizingInFedi @mike_hales

@bhaugen
Yes, it's an issue. The ultimate solution is to get all jurisdictions to do what NZ did and remove software from the scope of patent law. In the meantime, compromises such as defensive patents may be necessary. But since they also implicitly endorse the patenting of software, it's crucial to have robust debate about whether they really are necessary and what other defensive options exist for libre software communities.

@tetrislife @gert @clacke @matslats @organizingInFedi @mike_hales

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